rental dispute

[M5V8 337]

So last weekend I rented a mx5 on Waiheke island.

We picked the car up late, in the dark as our ferry was the last to the island.

Had a lovely weekend and dropped the car back on our way home.

So I get a nasty phone call from the rental company owner come monday saying I didn't fold the top down properly and the window is cracked.

Now this is a 24 year old mx5. I noticed a crack in the window first thing sat morning, basically in the daylight.

We folded down the roof like any normal person would.

He's now claiming there's a special way to do it, which he didn't bother to tell us. And has charged me $700 to buy a whole new roof.

Looking at tripadvisor I'm seeing alot of complaints like this about errant charges for damage from operators.

besides taking him to court to dispute the charge what else can i do?

[Tristan 338]

Before you took control of the car was there any "walk around" process identifying damage to the vehicle i.e. dents, scratches, etc.

I'm on Waiheke every other weekend and can tell you that some of the people will take advantage of any situation to get some extra dollars; even businesses.

Unless he can prove that it was you I wouldn't pay him a cent. If you noticed the crack and you know you didn't do anything, then definitely don't pay. If you tell him you're going to take him to court he'll probably back off to be honest.

All IMO

[NZ BMW 368]

Dispute the credit card charge with the bank.

[M5V8 337]

he's charged my debit card so already took the money before he called me.

And no there wasn't a walkaround. I guess I'm the naive sucker there. I was flying up from wtgn friday night so we were on the last ferry as my flight was delayed in wtgn.

It was pitch black when we arrived. They just left the car in the carpark. Keys under the matt.

The whole car is pretty f**ked to be honest. But the brakes worked and didn't kill us.

When he rang me he said the damage was from not folding the roof down correctly. Yet he didn't advise us of any special conditions around this.

Then yesterday I noticed he's updated his website with them. Which makes me think he's a shifty b*stard.

I have a printout of the website before the change.

Edited June 25, 2013 by M5V8

[yng_750 247]

talk to the bank, they can reverse the charge (im told, haven't done it myself.)

rather than wait silently for him to take you to court i would get a lawyer to write up a letter outlining your rights etc. (sure there a lawyer on here that likes you enough to help out)

all the chance in the world he will give up at the sight of trouble because it wll cost him more to take court action than its worth, if he has any doubt he will probably just blame the next person.

Also as a side note if he has charged you $700 he must supply you with invoices totaling $700 worth of parts, and it must be reasonable costs, if he bought an old roof it likely has not cost him $700, if he has bought s brand new roof then he should deduct "improvement value" (much like an insurance company will if they repair existing damage along with claimed damage) ring around, if your find 3 or 4 upholstery company's saying you can stitch in a new rear window for $50 then thats all you should pay(if you end up paying).

If he then claims that it cost $xxx to get someone over to the island etc that is on him as it would be a reasonable business expense he could foresee when setting up a business in a remote area.

I would also put in the letter that you have proof he changed the website which proves he knew full well there were no conditions set out. very common issue on an mx5 to have the rear window crack, it is a maintenance item much like bmw cooling systems.

Edited June 25, 2013 by jason H

[M5V8 337]

interesting....

I've requested a dispute form from the bank, but i'm pretty sure they only reverse if the other party can't prove it was a legitimate purchase. ie- they never did business with them.

This is different. I did hire the car.

why? it was the only convertible left as the BMW had been hired. I like convertibles. It was nice cruising around the wineries with the top down.

Edited June 25, 2013 by M5V8

[M5V8 337]

ok so i've emailed him back and offered to pay for half the actual repair cost.

Not the inflated $400 his stated as the cost to "remove & replace"

[Tristan 338]

That's very diplomatic of you. Do you think you caused the damage?

[qube 3570]

I think this is an easy solution but hard decision to make. Well done.

Scary to think they can just take out money again!

[M5V8 337]

That's very diplomatic of you. Do you think you caused the damage?

well i'm not unreasonable. But i also dont believe we did anything wrong.

The wife reckons the crack was there when we got it. I certainly saw it first thing sat morning.

I can't really say. The owner has stated that there's a special way to stow the hood which prevents this cracking.

He just didn't tell us at the time. Leading me to wonder if this is bull. He's certainly trying to cover his tracks now.

Personally. I think this hasn't been an issue for him before so he never mentioned anything.

I also think he hasn't rented the car at this time of the year recently which from what I have read makes the window more brittle. It was pretty cold but we hired a convertible for a reason.

I think the age of the roof and the cold temp caused it to crack during normal operation.

I bet it was probably fine during summer when it was last hired.

He's got an offer. Lets see how reasonable he will be.

$700 for a new hood....the car seriously wasn't worth $700. It was well trashed and smelt like wee.

[jeffbebe 1559]

Personally, I would get the bank to reverse the charges... He's essentially stolen your money by using your debit card for a transaction you didn't approve if you didn't cause the damage. I hear a lot of stories of taxi and car rental operators taking people for a ride on Waiheke.

Of course, us big city folk are a bit more streetwise than you regional chaps hehe

[Tristan 338]

I understand that you're reasonable Darren, but like Julian says those Waiheke folk can spin a damn good yarn! (know from experience)

I'd also get the charges reversed. Get a DETAILED breakdown of costs from the chap and shop around for cheaper quotes/confirmation that the price is realistic.

Personally, I wouldn't be paying him anything, especially if the wife thinks the crack was already there!

[M5V8 337]

cheers....

yeah I guess us country folk are alittle more trusting.

I won't be renting from anyone other than recognised firms in future whom use modern cars.

Sh1t thing is this was a present from the wife. We have had a stressful year with alot of cr*p happening and she just wanted to get away.

Well if he refuses then I'm all in.

[Apex 693]

Should his insurance not cover any damages? I thought that is how it works with rental companies.

[jeffbebe 1559]

Sh1t thing is this was a present from the wife. We have had a stressful year with alot of cr*p happening and she just wanted to get away.

Hey Darren... If not kicking up a fuss means your good lady doesn't stress, just take it on the chin - then start a below-the-line campaign to f*ck the cretin's business!!

[M5V8 337]

oh I've already started with the trip adviser reviews because we actively use that site.

which is where I should have looked before renting, there's alot of people with similar experiences from the island along with calls for fair go to intervene.

if I spent 2mins searching i would have found the "stay away from waiheke rentals" pages.

i'm kicking myself now. should have gone with an organised tour.

[bmw.maniac 1]

ok so i've emailed him back and offered to pay for half the actual repair cost.

Not the inflated $400 his stated as the cost to "remove & replace"

Hope you didn't admit that you did it. Pretty silly move I think.

In this sort of situation you wouldn't deal with a court or a lawyer at all. Best bet would be to file a claim with the disputes tribunal ($50, no lawyers allowed to represent you).

[bmw.maniac 1]

Nevertheless, call your bank and tell them it was an incorrect transaction, they should reverse it. It may be reapplied (see above) so keep an eye on it.

Once payment is reversed revert to my previous advice, put the onus back on them.

In the eyes of the bank it is a legitimate transaction. Darren supplied his card and (presumably) signed an agreement making him liable for any damage, and the lessor has alleged that the car was damaged.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Eddy

[M5V8 337]

Hope you didn't admit that you did it. Pretty silly move I think.

In this sort of situation you wouldn't deal with a court or a lawyer at all. Best bet would be to file a claim with the disputes tribunal ($50, no lawyers allowed to represent you).

no i didn't admit anything. I said it i didn't believe we did anything wrong but it would be easier to sort it this way than through the court.

[M5V8 337]

In the eyes of the bank it is a legitimate transaction. Darren supplied his card and (presumably) signed an agreement making him liable for any damage, and the lessor has alleged that the car was damaged.

I didn't sign anything it was booked over the phone.

[bmw.maniac 1]

I didn't sign anything it was booked over the phone.

Well then any lawyer would tell you than an implied term of that oral agreement was that you would be liable for damage. Even passing him your credit card with the knowledge it would be used as a bond (or giving the number over the phone) could be seen as accepting that you would be liable for damage.

[Allanw 1071]

I have managed a "cheap" family rental car company for a few years, about 8 years ago - dunno how much has changed though.

We had up to 120 cars, mostly cheapies and a few moving trucks etc.

If you signed nothing, you have NOT authorized them to take the repair costs from your credit/debit card (or in fact, ANY charges other than you agreed to on the phone). You have also NOT signed that you agree to their terms and condition on the rear of the rental agreeement. They are obligated to tell you that by signing the agreement, you are agreeing to the terms - they MUST provide you with a copy of the terms, and they MUST give you a copy of the agreement, that you must keep in the car when you are using it during the term of the rental. The details of the insurance must be disclosed in the terms or on the agreement. I only ever had two people read them all, but being honest/responsible I always pointed out the main parts about damage, costs, liability and things that void the insurance.

You need to call your bank and tell them what actually happened. ESPECIALLY the part where you didn't sign anything. If they couldn't be there to meet you, they needed to have you sign and fax back a copy. Also say that they did NOT do a walk around with you and mark the existing defects as the car was left out for you to collect after hours, and that you DID notice the crack when you did, but can't confirm if it was there at pickup or not - it was late/dark.

The credit card company will put the transaction on hold, and reverse the payment to their account - it will be held in limbo until the problem is sorted.

What type of MX5 is it - Glass or palstic rear window? The plastic ones crack when they are rooted, and there is a certain amount of care to be taken - they should have explained the issues or left instructions in the car. If the window was brittle and old, it's probably wear and tear.

IF the damage is attributed to something you did, you are responsible to return the vehicle to it's pre-hire condition, NO better/worse. They don't actually HAVE to repair the car, but can charge the FAIR cost of the repair. They can only charge you up to the insurance excess on the rental agreement for "accident" cover - IF you broke the window, and it was an accident, then the excess applies for a single vehicle accident (usually a higher excess). If the window was old, the insurance assessor would likely put it down to wear and tear too.

If the rear window is plastic, a canvas repair company should be able to give you an idea of the true repair cost.

Read through the terms and conditions of the rental in detail. It should explain what you are and are not liable for. If they were never provided, request, in email, a copy of the agreement for the rental and state you are requesting it because you were not provided with one at the time of collection.

If they push, and say you are still liable, be sure to ask them to send you a copy of the rental agreement, so you can prepare a case for the Disputes Tribunal.

The chargeback from the Credit card company should be immediate, and the Disputes Tribunal application should be lodged as soon as it's clear there will be no resolution.

NZTA info

Consumer Affairs

[Neal 545]

Wife was going to buy a Series 1 Mx5 many years ago. The dealer stressed that the rear window must be unzipped before putting the roof down unlike Z3's and similar. The rear window can rip as a result. You'd have no way of knowing this without being told up front.

Your being done on price as well MX5 repair window

[M5V8 337]

thanks team

We have come at an agreement to share the cost of the repair. I now await a refund.

Whilst I'm obviously not thrilled with the outcome, I don't relish the thought of heading to court nor is that outcome assured. Bird in the hand and all.

Of course if the refund doesn't happen I have no choice.

[Tristan 338]

You've dealt this very diplomatically and I applaud you for that. Chin up, mate!