M3AN 4016 Report post Posted January 24, 2014 Lol yeah, I think I'm screwed. I'll have some time (now) this weekend and will post details and advice for all. It's a total f**kup but I like to remain positive. Perhaps this will be the reason to fix everything else... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil-540i 166 Report post Posted January 24, 2014 Keep ya chin up, it'll look better tomorrow!!! You've done bloody well to get to this stage on it Dave............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted January 24, 2014 Keep ya chin up, it'll look better tomorrow!!! You've done bloody well to get to this stage on it Dave............. Cheers for the encouragement but in this case and at this point I really think there's no going forward. And with it being a long weekend I'm not expecting any advice until next week... It might be an expensive lesson I'm taking on behalf of us all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
central3 31 Report post Posted January 25, 2014 Lol yeah, I think I'm screwed. I'll have some time (now) this weekend and will post details and advice for all. It's a total f**kup but I like to remain positive. Perhaps this will be the reason to fix everything else... Feelin for you - you will get there. I had a big problem after I did my top end check (soleniod pack soldered joint failure) which had me thinking I had totally cocked up the job. Great support from the forum (Tom) got me through - post your progress/observations - someone may be able to help you avoid the flat bed 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Okay, update time... This thread is likely to be longer than I initially anticipated so mods may want to move it to the Maintenance (or Cock-Ups!) forum... So in summary the VANOS removal, seal procedure, sprocket removal and rattle repair went as anticipated. There was some small head-scratching moments but these were anticipated and dealt with quite easily. The Beisan photographic procedure is easy enough to follow although I would change the order of some steps (namely rather than disassembling one part of the VANOS, fixing, cleaning reassembling it and moving on to the next I would actually disassemble the whole thing at once, clean it all at the same time, fix it all together then reassemble the whole thing - all you need to do is keep your intake and exhaust parts in separate piles). Reassembly started as anticipated and was going well. Exhaust cam went back in and locked down, intake sprocket when on fine, timing chain went on fine (with a bit of fiddling) and the intake and exhaust sprocket hubs went back on fine. Initial TDC was achieved and matched across both cams and the crank. So far so good. And to be honest nearly complete at this stage. Then... attempting to reinstall the timing chain tensioner bolt and piston I ran into trouble. It's part 12 in this diagram and has a threaded steel cap bolt with encapsulated piston. I could not hand tighten this past about 3 threads then it would bind. We spent a whole day looking at this carefully not sure what was the cause. We couldn't see any aluminium shards (from the head internal thread) and we couldn't see any crossed threads but access is difficult. However late in the day we saw score marks from the bolt thread on the entrance to the hole in the head which clearly indicated the bolt had at some time been inserted or removed at an angle. We concluded at this time that the threads had been crossed. It's difficult to tell how this happened because it came out easily enough, wasn't touched subsequently and then just couldn't go back in. We don't believe we put anywhere near enough torque on it to damage it to this extent but I accept responsibility for it nevertheless. Further confusing the matter is that the piston no longer slides into the bolt. Both appear to be hard steel and whilst they have very fine tolerances I (nor anybody else) can explain how the parts no longer fit together when they were just sitting on a work bench for 24 hours. It's improbable that the aluminium head damaged the steel bolt so who knows? As a result of this thread I've been a little overwhelmed by the offers of support and over the last two days 3 different forum members have visited to provide support, advice and condolence... including a practicing BMW technician. They shall remain nameless unless they want to chime in but either way I am very, very grateful for their time and support, thank you so much (all awesome guys to chat to as well)! The consensus (5 opinions) is that I'm going to have to tap into the head to correct the threads and most likely get a new chain tensioner assembly to be on the safe side. Now this is not something I'd ever wish to have to do to any engine let alone a BMW S engine but I am where I am and there appears no other way forward. It has been done before apparently and isn't in the realm of ridiculous or impossible. It will be a challenge without taking the head off and I need to talk to some machine shops about the correct tap and getting a custom made guide fabricated to ensure the tap goes in dead straight. I'll be doing this discussing and planning during the coming week. Complicating matters further is that when one of the members here came around he questioned why I'd removed the VANOS oil pump retaining ring and I responded that I hadn't. We looked at the various Beisan pictures and noted that indeed I had a different (and somewhat useless) retainer of a different type installed. There's no discussion I can find about this on the web so it's not clear if the early double VANOS units came like mine or if a dodgy job has been done previously. So now I'm on the lookout for this ring which is the bit being removed in this photo: I'm not sure about the ring but it certainly looks important and the bit that I have in there instead doesn't really look like it will do much at all. More to follow and am happy to answer questions or explore alternatives. I'm not going to get all bitter about this experience, it's a lesson in life and hopefully of some benefit to somebody else eventually. More to follow... Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Retaining Ring Update So neither Beisan Systems or Dr. VANOS have ever seen a VANOS unit with the retainer I have in mine and they don't believe it's stock. Indeed they're amazed I haven't had a spectacular failure with the oil pump floating free and destroying the VANOS unit or worse, jamming the intake exhaust cam sprocket and destroying valves and pistons... So it's clear to me now that somebody else has been in there and I'm inclined to think they screwed up the chain tensioner also... grr. It's not available as an individual part from BMW. Good news is that Raj from Beisan Systems is sending me a spare retainer for the cost of postage only... top bloke, great service. I'm pretty glad I did take the VANOS out now and I'm really glad that Mark noticed something was different to his! Edited January 27, 2014 by M3AN 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil-540i 166 Report post Posted January 27, 2014 Sounds to me like you've done all the right stuff the right way so far on it, so just hang in there & keep nudging away at it till it comes round to your way of thinking Dave..... Big 'thumbs-up' to the guys that've had a look at it!!! Awesome!! I hate it myself when jobs turn to custard, & ya end up wandering round muttering 'Ya b1tch' profusely!!! Sounds like a good plan you've got re tapping it out etc, so should work out fine.......& hey, alcohol helps......... Peace of mind down the track for ya - priceless........... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Okay so despite my silence on the matter I've made some progress this week: 1. I got the piston back into the tensioner cap bolt - 400 grit wet with CRC and 20 mins of 'finger grease' and it's back to factory tolerances. Nice. 2. I 'found' the correct tap 26x1.5mm - lent by an awesome forum member which is great because no tool shop could find one for me! 3. I've had the base plate for my tap guide fabricated - it obviously needs more added to it but this is just for a test fit to ensure I didn't stuff up the measurements. 4. Shipping was confirmed for my VANOS retaining ring parts from the US. Early next week I hope to get the guide finished and with any luck the parts from the US will arrive before the end of the week (I need these before I can install the VANOS). Step-by-step... Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tristan 338 Report post Posted February 1, 2014 Good to hear, nice progress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hybrid 1043 Report post Posted February 1, 2014 win ... at the end of it .. great learning process 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
euroriffic 609 Report post Posted February 1, 2014 Good to see your still making progress. Always hate little obsticals like this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 6, 2014 (edited) And now this "incompetent home mechanic" has a tap guide which is even more cause for "screwing up a simple Vanos job following a well written instruction from the web." even though there are no instructions for this... oh well, head first... This should be fun! And a BIG shout out to Mike at Brendon Engineering in Parity Drive Glenfield. He was a legend when it came to throwing together this guide for me and is a real character to spend time with, salt of the earth type. He seemed to enjoy this small challenge and didn't even want to charge me for all the time he spent discussing it with me. Real nice. Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zadkiel 41 Report post Posted February 7, 2014 Good stuff, just thought I'd mention I would struggle to do this greatly myself so you're definitely above me in the home mechanic stakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Well, this is the sweet picture of success! That is one chain tensioner bolt fully inserted, torqued and secured! My anxiety about doing this job was quickly dismissed as the tap went straight in (secured by the guide) and took very little force to twist through. We were able to use a standard length 16mm spanner to easily turn the tap into the thread as it was held by the guide. The tap was packed full of grease to collect any shavings and that was a good idea (for lube also) even though very little aluminium came out. We also stuffed a small bit of cloth into the back of the hole to ensure nothing was pushed out the end into the chain casing. Once the tap was complete (seriously in less than 5 minutes after all this waiting!) I attempted to wind the bolt back in by hand but it bound! Gulp! All that was required here though was to clean up the bolt threads with some steel wool and PRESTO it wound right in... With the correct tools on hand the job took 20 mins max. Based on this experience it's obvious that the threads had minor fouling rather than any serious stripping or crossing. The thread is M26x1.5 so it's very fine for the size and obviously very intolerant of any deformation. Smoothing them back out was ultimately a simple exercise (but one that had me very, very worried). I'm not really sure what the moral of this story is but here are a few things that occurred along the way: 1. I met some really awesome people from here at Bimmersport and got some really helpful advice. Two people in particular were amazing with their time, support, knowledge and tools - thank you Ian and Mark, you're legends! 2. I had a great time with Mike at Brendon Engineering where he was always happy to invite me into the machine room and play with the (manual) tools. Wow they've got some cool equipment there! For the $80 I spent on a piece-of-mind tool I got many hours of engineering and equipment education, that was invaluable. 3. Sometimes you encounter problems that there's little or no information on and when you're inexperienced this can be intimidating. When you reach out for knowledge, take your time and equip yourself with the correct tools you can find that seemingly insurmountable obstacles are less challenging than you anticipated. Now I've just got to receive my parts from the US and put the bloody VANOS back together! Not counting my chickens until that's all done so wish me luck! Thanks for caring. Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael. 2313 Report post Posted February 9, 2014 Just read through all this! What a mission, but at least it all came to a head and you sorted it out. Well done, I guess this is part off the fun owning a once high end car nearly 20 years later! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ahmedsinc 414 Report post Posted February 9, 2014 Two thumbs up for your persistence! great to see you're making headway again 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 9, 2014 And the required (upgraded retainer) bits arrived from the US this morning so I know what I'm doing today! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 9, 2014 (edited) Here are some photos that illustrate the different oil pump retaining ring and washer that I originally had and the "upgraded" ones received from the US. What was in my VANOS (note the thin snap ring and plastic washer - that washer was destroyed in my VANOS, pictured below is a new one from BMW #11 36 1 404 047): This is how the e36 VANOS typically comes (larger snap ring and same washer): And the S54 (e46) upgraded this setup with a metal washer and reversed the installation order: So old verses new: I'm going to install it all the S54 way with the washer going on first then the snap ring. I was always interested in what that plastic washer actually did as it wasn't held in place by anything. With the reverse setup as per the S54 the washer is held in place by the snap ring which seems much more sensible to me. NOTE: Because the "washer" is relocated to the "inside" of the VANOS on the S54 it is not available as a spare part from BMW in S54 guise. This means that if you want a metal one you need to get it from an aftermarket supplier (e.g. Dr VANOS or Beisan) or pull it from a e46 M3 VANOS (and possibly other models). I'm not sure what difference it will make if any at all but the metal one seems far more durable and considering my plastic one was wrecked I'm happy with more durability. Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3_Power 636 Report post Posted February 10, 2014 (edited) Well done!! I am just wondering whether the reason it has a slightly strange snap ring in there for the vanos oil pump housing is because someone replaced the bearing and race in the past and used the snap ring that came with the bearing kit? (when the bearing goes bad) I would double check that the race, metal washer and the snap ring are snug with the new s54 versions in place. Keep it up. Edited February 10, 2014 by M3_Power Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 10, 2014 Cheers. Sound timing on the oil pump recommendation as I'll be able to inspect it shortly. I've successfully test fitted the VANOS now but need to remove it again because I'm not 100% comfortable about how the exhaust sprocket bolts line up with the access slots. I'll double check the oil pump when it's back out. It seemed to go on real sweet the first time so here's hoping I can repeat that experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
euroriffic 609 Report post Posted February 10, 2014 Good to see you're back on track! Picking up a few tips for when I do mine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 10, 2014 Good to see you're back on track! Picking up a few tips for when I do mine Whilst I'm learning as I go I *am* learning and I'll be happy to share any knowledge I gain with other members. To be honest though, I hope nobody needs the knowledge I've gained, lol! I'm so glad I'm under no pressure for garage space or to get the car back on the road. I'd hate to have to rush something like this... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 11, 2014 (edited) So I was able to get back in to it today and damn it took a lot of time and patience to get the chain/sprockets/cams/VANOS all lined up! Actually the specific problem was getting the slots in the exhaust cam sprocket to line up perfectly with the gaps in the cam sensor impeller. To be honest I'm still not sure what this alignment (on the exhaust side) is required for other than access? The TIS article specifically mentions that exhaust side must be specific, intake can be there or thereabouts. Why is this? Nevertheless after more time than scheduled (but no less than expected) I got the sucker lined up and then it was time for dinner. Hopefully I'll have some time to spend on it tomorrow. Edited May 28, 2018 by M3AN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1071 Report post Posted February 11, 2014 Are you going to be able to start it? You might need some diazepam first. Maybe a bottle of scotch too Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
M3AN 4016 Report post Posted February 11, 2014 Are you going to be able to start it? You might need some diazepam first. Maybe a bottle of scotch too That's the question of the day. I've just taken a break for lunch but the job is almost complete, VANOS is back on and timing is good. Valve cover and ancillary connections to go... ...then I need the courage to start her up! Apparently it will sound terrible until the oil pressure builds and I'm not looking forward to that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
