BMW M approved Castrol Edge tws 10w 60 vs ...

[M3_Power 636]

And here’s for the doubters like Dave

Data Spec from Castrol

Castrol Edge Titanium FST SN (not BMW M approved) the one used to be sold by Repco and the only 10w-60 available via retail until recently.

The famous or should that be infamous Castrol edge TWS (aka TWS Professional) approved by BMW M and used by BMW dealerships until they cancelled their contract with Castrol.

And the Castrol Edge Titanium FST Supercar - aka the newly branded TWS edge professional - approved by BMW M, but no longer sold through the dealerships

As you can see identical spec to the TWS Edge Professional.

 

And for those that still say don’t get worked up over oil, I am off to pick up a drum of fish and chips oils from my local fish and chip shop, I will happily do an oil change with this stuff for anyone with a BMW M motor - no guarantees however your motor won’t go boom!

Edited February 1, 2019 by M3_Power

[M3AN 4017]

5 hours ago, M3_Power said:

I am disappointed Dave that you take the words of a Repco employee over that of a Castrol technical engineer. But oh well like you said no need to get worked up over oil!

Well, I'm honoured that you'd spend the emotional energy required to be disappointed in me... I didn't realise you cared so much!

Your posts here belie your acceptance that there's no need to get worked up, it certainly appears as if you are indeed quite worked up about the subject. Wasted energy IMO.

So, the oils are different, who really cares? I don't. I was simply relaying what I had been told and it seemed entirely reasonable. If the changes in the oil were significant enough to make a real world difference Castol's marketing department would be all over it. They're not and that speaks volumes.

If BMW can change brands of oil without concern then no reasonable consumer should be expected to consider the relatively insignificant changes between two products from the same product line. 

Do you really, honestly believe that one of the two oils in question is unsuitable for M cars and the other is not? Of course you don't so get down off your pretentious horse and join the real world.

The new guy asked for real world advice. The answer to his question is "either is fine" and required none of the miniature that you've diluted the truth with.

 

[M3_Power 636]

Dave Dave Dave, is it so hard for you to admit that your advice was some what lacking? The guy asked which was the TWS equivalent and there was only one right answer to that.

I am sure you’ve heard of the Tribunal case of the Maserati owner that lost against the dealership and mechanical Insurer because a non approved oil was used in the engine once and it blew up? 

Whilst that might not impact you personally or majority of people here I am certain you won’t catch a reputable BMW specialist workshop using non approved oil to do a service on a customer car - imagine the uproar lol!!! Heck they’d double their margins on oil if they swapped one product for another! Perhaps you should be telling them all to get off their high horses and to pull their snobby fingers out of their arses for being pretentious?

On a more serious note, I was on three different phone calls with the Castrol technical guy (not saled rep) for an hour over this topic last year and he looked up the formulation (not available to the public of course) and said they are different products - period.

Whilst I agree it need not be an “approved” oil for an engine to work, but it surely can’t hurt? Surely you agree on that? Heck I don’t see you use made in China bushes over Lemforder for your cars in your builds. Double standard are we?! And if you’ve bothered to read past posts you’ll see I actually agree somewhat when it comes to other branded oil of the same weight that meets or exceeds the approved oil standards like Liqui Moly, Redline, Motul ect

But let’s see how staunch you actually are about your cavalier and simply don’t give a F attitude over engine oil ... here’s my offer to you and let’s put your theory to the test ... I’ll buy you an oil of “my” choosing out of my own pocket each and everytime you need an oil change for your E36 M3 and you put that in each and everytime and run it till the next scheduled oil change? Should we see if Chinese oil is just as good and perfectly suited for M engines? And let’s document it for the forum masses shall we? Challenge accepted?

Edited February 1, 2019 by M3_Power

[richard 384]

thanks for the heads up guys , just went and got 3x @$ 74.20 each

[smashingly 0]

Another related question about jacking:

Re: jacking the car up via the four jacking points that are just under the car along the left and right hand sides.  Is it a bad idea to jack the car up by one of those jack points at a time?  (e.g. right front jackpoint, the one below the driver's door).   Maybe puts undue twisting stress on the chassis or something?  I realise the chassis gets twisting forces on it anyway, but, y'know, new-owner paranoia... (worse than being a new parent, lol)

[B.M.W Ltd 951]

9 minutes ago, smashingly said:

Another related question about jacking:

Re: jacking the car up via the four jacking points that are just under the car along the left and right hand sides.  Is it a bad idea to jack the car up by one of those jack points at a time?  (e.g. right front jackpoint, the one below the driver's door).   Maybe puts undue twisting stress on the chassis or something?  I realise the chassis gets twisting forces on it anyway, but, y'know, new-owner paranoia... (worse than being a new parent, lol)

Never any higher than the height to remove a wheel especially on coupes and convertibles and always keep the doors closed.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by B.M.W Ltd

[smashingly 0]

13 minutes ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

Never any higher than the height to remove a wheel especially on coupes and convertibles and always keep the doors closed.

 

OK, in that case I'll get a 2nd trolley jack so that I can jack up both the front/rear side jackpoints evenly, i.e. front/left + rear/left.  Then put 150mm thick wood blocks under the left side wheels, then lowering the jacks onto the blocks, then jack up the right side, blocks under wheels.  Then jacks under front/left + front/right jackpoints as safeties (or stands, if I can fit them).  That way there'll be no twisting, except for minor differences in how evenly I operate the two jacks.

Edit: gonna order low-profile ramps so that next time around I can do this job with jacks + stands - just can't get decent ramps in Wellington, and need to change the oil this weekend before a road-trip early next week.

Edited February 2, 2019 by smashingly

[B.M.W Ltd 951]

I just purchased a set of ramps from Ripco $170

[Eagle 1734]

31 minutes ago, smashingly said:

OK, in that case I'll get a 2nd trolley jack so that I can jack up both the front/rear side jackpoints evenly

If you are going to get another trolley jack then why wouldn't just jack the car up using center jack point\pad and then using axle stands under the jack points or ramps?. Sure you still may need to lift one side a little to get the 2nd jack under the car  (depending the profile and how low the car is) but its far easier.

[M3AN 4017]

8 hours ago, M3_Power said:

...

Whilst I agree it need not be an “approved” oil for an engine to work, but it surely can’t hurt? Surely you agree on that? Heck I don’t see you use made in China bushes over Lemforder for your cars in your builds. Double standard are we?! And if you’ve bothered to read past posts you’ll see I actually agree somewhat when it comes to other branded oil of the same weight that meets or exceeds the approved oil standards like Liqui Moly, Redline, Motul ect

But let’s see how staunch you actually are about your cavalier and simply don’t give a F attitude over engine oil ... here’s my offer to you and let’s put your theory to the test ... I’ll buy you an oil of “my” choosing out of my own pocket each and everytime you need an oil change for your E36 M3 and you put that in each and everytime and run it till the next scheduled oil change? Should we see if Chinese oil is just as good and perfectly suited for M engines? And let’s document it for the forum masses shall we? Challenge accepted?

I agree that it can't hurt to use the "approved" oil. And in this case, since it readily available at a lower cost than the alternative it makes perfect sense. And I accept that you were only answering which was preferred.

You are mischaracterising my position though. I'm not advocating a "Chinese" oil over an approved oil, I'm saying that you're not going to do any harm by selecting one of two almost identical oils from the same reputable manufacturer as long as it's a suitable viscosity. Suggesting I'm being "cavalier" by asserting this is ridiculous.

My problem is when people who should know better state there's only one choice when there's not. It's like the myth perpetuated about BMW coolant that is somehow magical. It's been repeated so often over time that too many people believe it and it becomes self-perpetuating.

I do appreciate your less aggressive tone so thanks for that.

Edited February 2, 2019 by M3AN

[M3AN 4017]

47 minutes ago, smashingly said:

OK, in that case I'll get a 2nd trolley jack so that I can jack up both the front/rear side jackpoints evenly, i.e. front/left + rear/left.  Then put 150mm thick wood blocks under the left side wheels, then lowering the jacks onto the blocks, then jack up the right side, blocks under wheels.  Then jacks under front/left + front/right jackpoints as safeties (or stands, if I can fit them).  That way there'll be no twisting, except for minor differences in how evenly I operate the two jacks.

Edit: gonna order low-profile ramps so that next time around I can do this job with jacks + stands - just can't get decent ramps in Wellington, and need to change the oil this weekend before a road-trip early next week.

I normally just drive the font of the car onto blocks, jack up the rear from the centre, install rear jack stands and then jack the front from the centre and install front jack stands. One jack, two blocks, four stands.

If the font bumper is on I normally have to do the rear end in two goes, first to get the stands in (on lowest setting) then again to level it once the front it done. If I have the bumper off this isn't necessary.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by M3AN

[B.M.W Ltd 951]

17 minutes ago, Eagle said:

If you are going to get another trolley jack then why wouldn't just jack the car up using center jack point\pad and then using axle stands under the jack points or ramps?. Sure you still may need to lift one side a little to get the 2nd jack under the car  (depending the profile and how low the car is) but its far easier.

Some of the cars have full stone tray covers and access to a center lifting point is not possible

[smashingly 0]

35 minutes ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

Some of the cars have full stone tray covers and access to a center lifting point is not possible

Yup, I checked clearance the other day, it's about 110-115mm and my jack's minimum lifting height is 135mm, but also the body of the jack slopes upwards from front to back, so that stops me from sliding it under any part of the car.  I thought about driving the front wheels onto 45mm thick timber slabs that I have (300mm wide) but even that wouldn't increase the clearance enough - I'd need to go dump $455 @ Repco for a lower profile jack.

I realise the way I'm doing it isn't optimum, but I'm constrained by time and don't have time to get low profile ramps, then I'd happily jack it up on the centre point then use stands on the sides.

Edit: I dunno if it's 110-115mm or not, it might be 120-125mm, I just remember that it was enough to fit my Bahco tape measure (100mm body length) plus 1-1.5cm of the tape, maybe a bit more.  The main snag is the frame of the jack, can't get it in from behind the wheels, or in front of the car, not without pre-raising it with ramps (or using the 2nd jack).

Edited February 2, 2019 by smashingly

[smashingly 0]

1 hour ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

I just purchased a set of ramps from Ripco $170

Which ones, and how wide are they?  Are they a flat enough slope to use on the front wheels?  I'd researched the Repco ones and they didn't look wide enough (not for the rear 265/35s anyway).  Didn't get around to checking approach angle (i.e. to see if they'd foul on the underside).

[B.M.W Ltd 951]

1 hour ago, smashingly said:

Which ones, and how wide are they?  Are they a flat enough slope to use on the front wheels?  I'd researched the Repco ones and they didn't look wide enough (not for the rear 265/35s anyway).  Didn't get around to checking approach angle (i.e. to see if they'd foul on the underside).

They won't do for your car and mines AWD with diff lock. If you can get wide enough ramps, drill 2 holes in the drive way or garage floor to pin the ramps from moving forward. Oops was thinking out loud. Ramps won't work too low. Think safety first when looking at using 2 jacks. I wouldn't. Another option, something like this https://www.quickjacklift.co.uk/ or this http://www.sulco.co.nz/Automotive-Equipment/Car-Scissor-Lifts/MOBILE-MID-RISE-SCISSOR-LIFT.html

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by B.M.W Ltd

[Eagle 1734]

4 hours ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

Some of the cars have full stone tray covers and access to a center lifting point is not possible

Indeed its poor design but BMW are usually pretty good when it comes to that sort of thing

3 hours ago, smashingly said:

Yup, I checked clearance the other day, it's about 110-115mm and my jack's minimum lifting height is 135mm, but also the body of the jack slopes upwards from front to back, so that stops me from sliding it under any part of the car.  I thought about driving the front wheels onto 45mm thick timber slabs that I have (300mm wide) but even that wouldn't increase the clearance enough - I'd need to go dump $455 @ Repco for a lower profile jack.

Well if you get a cheap 1.5 ton jack ($74 Toolpro low profile one on sale @ SCA atm) to use on the side to get clearance for the main jack i don't see why that wouldn't work unless your jack main is that terrible. If its that bad then a decent low profile one is probably a good idea. Ive done some pretty low cars with my 3 ton high profile Powerbuilt, i just had to jack a side up first which allowed for plenty of clearance.

[smashingly 0]

OK, the oil change is done!  By god that was an ordeal though.  The whole slabs-of-wood thing was a total ball-ache as I knew it would be, and resulted in a sub-optimal draining because I couldn't get the back raised as much as the front (I stuffed up on the jack specs).  On the upside, I did manage to get the front high enough to fit my axle stands underneath as failsafes (i.e. not positioned in a good spot to take actual load, but sitting underneath a strong enough point to save my life, albeit it would do a bit of damage to the underbelly pan but that'd still beat having my skull crushed).  

Things I learned:

• The oil was pretty dirty.  Not the worst I've seen (i.e. when I was a teenager with no income and my old beater cars would have pretty nasty black looking waste oil).  Don't know what the last owner's mechanics put in it, or if they just lied and didn't change the oil... but if I believe their windscreen sticker then the oil was changed only 6200km ago.  Seems a bit suss to me.  Maybe the previous owner flogged it particularly hard or tracked it.  I also noticed when I drained my oil drain pan that it seemed like the bottom layer of oil on the bottom of the pan was particularly viscous compared to the rest of the waste oil I'd poured out.  Hard to know as it had had 2 hours worth of cooling.
• I stuffed up when I bought the smaller jack (I went for a 1350kg one for using on the rear of the car, mainly out of stupid cheapskatedness) - I thought its max lifting height was the same as my bigger jack, but I mis-read the label - its max height is 50mm lower.  So that meant I couldn't get more than 1 wood-slab under the rear wheels, and that meant the rear of the car was 90mm lower than the front.
• As I waited for the oil to finish draining, I thought about ways to get the back end level with the front, thought of a couple of ways, and nearly tried one before realising that as I had no wheel-chocks, it would be suicidal as the rear would be off the blocks momentarily and the car could (worst-case) roll forward or backward.  The garage floor is level, but who wants to take the risk?  (and stupid of me for not buying chocks in any case).
• I was surprised how far down that filter-housing cavity goes (the small 8-10mm hole that holds a seemingly infinitely deep pool of old oil.  Next time I'll get a turkey-baster.
• Even though today's lifting method didn't optimally drain the sumps completely, now that I know how bad the old oil was, I'm still glad I did it.  I'm going on a road trip WLG to AKL early next week and I couldn't find any (competent) mechanics who could change the oil before then - so this is still a better situation than I was in before hopefully.
• Other stuff I did - I pre-filled the oil filter housing with a similar amount of fresh oil to the amount of old oil that I'd had to soak up.  I also primed the oil filter with fresh oil.
• I filled it with 8.6L of oil, didn't go for the full 8.8L as I estimate that there might be 100mL still lurking in the sump due to the back end being lower than the front, and I figured I'd probably put about 100mL into the filter housing and the filter itself when priming it. 

I've never hated the no-dipstick thing more, than when I had to start the engine!!  It's a real moment of truth eh!  But unlike some of the Youtube videos of this oil change, where their engine makes a pretty horrid rattle for a few seconds after initial startup, mine sounded fine..  So I took it for a (ridiculously gentle) drive then when the oil was hot enough and the iDrive started saying "measuring oil level", found a flat level street and idled whilst it did that.  And boom, I got it pretty spot on - it's exactly halfway between min and max, with no warnings to add more.  I turned the engine off on that same flat street, oil at approx 100ºC and restarted it to get another measurement - same result.  Drove it back home and tidied everything up.  Started it again to put it in the garage and let it take another reading - same result.  Will give it a few days then add another 200mL or so to see if I can get it closer to the max line (if only to dilute that old crappy ~100mL of oil I couldn't get out!)

So the main lesson learned is that my way was a sucky way to do it, but that I'm still glad I got it done so my car has at least 98% fresh oil in it, and a fresh filter - better than nothing, and really great to break the seal on this job, which I was finding daunting - it's so different changing the oil on a high tech expensive (for me) vehicle like this, compared to the old dungers I worked on in my teens and twenties.  Service-time is coming up in a months or so, so I'll get the oil changed again then, and that should hopefully get the last of the previous owner's crappy oil out.  I know it probably seems retarded to change the oil so soon before a service, but I knew the old oil would be sh** and I didn't want to torture my new baby any longer, given that I'm going on a 2000km road trip. 

Thanks heaps for all the pointers about jacking - the fact that I went ahead and did it my way anyway does *not* mean that I dismissed or didn't value your advice - I specifically posted about my jacking plans to get your valuable feedback (and avoid death).  I took it all onboard and thought carefully about your suggestions but was constrained mainly due to timeframes vs availability of better jacks/etc.  I think next time I want to be able to get it onto 4x axle stands, to get more of the oil out.  Will check out those links @B.M.W Ltd - cheers.

Thankyou all for your help and for making it all the way through this long post  ?

 

[M3AN 4017]

Wow, that sounds way more complicated that it should be... where's the drain plug that it requires the car to be level? Even if level is required you could just leave the drain pan under the car and lower it back to ground...

And you can flush the oil when you're doing the change, that would be significantly less expensive that replacing the whole lot in a month. In fact, even if you're paranoid you could just change the filter next service... any crap that you need to be concerned about will already be picked up and you'd save a couple of hundred bucks on fresh oil. Although I'd say that's probably unnecessary anyway.

 

[GorGasm 563]

Yeah I agree, way to over think one of the most basic pieces of car maintenance.

[qube 3570]

i just jack up one side high enough to get under, prop it up with blocks, drain as much as I can then drop it down. then go round to the other side and lift that up on the jack to get some more oil out, then prop it up plug the hole, drop the car.

so its like a see saw thing if you can imagine it.

also I always fill 500ml less than the capacity, thats more than enough to start the car and usually there is a fair bit left inside. I usually drain for a good 3ish hours to get as much out as possible.