M Performance Extras - NZ Cost?

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

Hi there,

Does anyone know if there is an NZ equivalent of the USA BMW Shop (https://www.shopbmwusa.com/HOME) where you can actually see the list prices of M Performance parts?

For example, the USA prices for the BMW (Drexler) LSD and the M Performance Exhaust that fits the M140i are as per below, but I've not been able to get a clear answer for NZ prices, with one quote being $8k+ for the LSD fitted and $4.5k+ for the exhaust fitted, both of which seem asinine.

[KwS 2429]

Those prices wouldn't surprise me, BMW NZ seems to have some horrific parts pricing compared to the rest of the world. Its been cheaper for me to buy everything for my E36 from overseas, including freight (and GST if pinged), than to buy half of it locally. Its very disappointing.

[qube 3570]

Looks about right.

There are cheaper options for both if you source yourself and get it fitted elsewhere.

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

That's astonishing. What on earth could be the justification for charging double what a private individual can land it for, as a single part, paying all relevant taxes and duties, and buying from BMW directly overseas?

It's not like you're comparing it with a grey market dealer, it's literally the BMW Shop!

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

38 minutes ago, qube said:

Looks about right

P.S. Don't suppose you were driving through the back of Mt Eden approximately 1pm yesterday? Was driving behind a white M135i.

[Matth5 471]

1 hour ago, BlackrazorNZ said:

That's astonishing. What on earth could be the justification for charging double what a private individual can land it for, as a single part, paying all relevant taxes and duties, and buying from BMW directly overseas?

It's not like you're comparing it with a grey market dealer, it's literally the BMW Shop!

Because there are people who will throw money at BMW NZ without researching, apparently.
I think most of us on this site just import stuff ourselves. I've given up even asking the local dealers for quotes. 

[Eagle 1679]

Yep hence the all the "BMW's are expensive to fix" comments you always here. Many of us wouldn't be to afford\justify being able to run any BMW if we had to shop at the dealer.. Sure some of the their pricing is ok but don't they seem to stock much esp for the older models so no reason not to order it yourself which is cheaper and faster. Even then items like coolant which were reasonably priced keep going up and up (at the local dealer here at least)

Only ~24 years ago when an motorsport spec BMW came with an LSD std.

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

52 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Only ~24 years ago when an motorsport spec BMW came with an LSD std.

It's an interesting topic really. I think a lot of the discussion comes from the fact that people are still discussing in terms of Open and Limited Slip Differentials, when the reality is somewhat more complicated. The modern cars use an Electronic LSD which is essentially an Open diff with torque vectoring via brake application. Which all sounds a bit jiggery-pokery and people poo-hoo it, but it's good enough to form a large part of the basis of the X-Drive system. Even some (nominally) Limited Slip differentials are actually fancy Open diffs with internal braking, e.g. Quaife etc.

Really interesting article, if you're into facts and figures, on the matter here : https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=719012

In short, the view for a lot of the modern RWD performance BMW's with an E-LSD seems to be, 'If you track it or drive at 9+/10 regularly, fork out for an LSD - if you don't, you'll be fine'.

There's also the very valid argument that goes, if the M240i came with an LSD, what compelling reason would there be to cough up for an M2? It'd be 95% of the car at 80% of the cost.

Edited January 29, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[Eagle 1679]

Yep aware of the 'e-lsd's' and they are certainly appear better than a pure open diff but they have their limits for some (which is why im assuming BMW are offering a true mechanical LSD)  

I think aftermarket diff ie Quaife maybe better depending on what's needed. Not sure how the 'e-lsd' would interact with it though. Would assume the BMW LSD would be designed to match or maybe they re-code modules to suit.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Eagle

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

12 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Yep aware of the 'e-lsd's' and they are certainly appear better than a pure open diff but they have their limits for some (which is why im assuming BMW are offering a true mechanical LSD)  

Indeed. ELSD's seem to work as good (and in some cases even better) the mechanical LSD's a lot of the time, but they have 2 big flaws:

- They're great until the point they can't cope and let go, and then they REALLY let go.

- If you get a wheel airborne over a chicane or whatever, the ELSD can sense the suddenly airborne wheel as 'slipping' and so apply a brake - which can have interesting consequences when the wheel lands again at speed!

12 minutes ago, Eagle said:

I think aftermarket diff ie Quaife maybe better depending on what's needed. Not sure how the 'e-lsd' would interact with it though. Would assume the BMW LSD would be designed to match or maybe they re-code modules to suit.

My understanding (limited as it is) is that a true mechanical LSD like the BMW Drexler model will ensure appropriate diff lock well before the point where the E-LSD sensor would start to apply brake force, so essentially once you fit a true LSD the ELSD doesn't kick in much or at all. I do know for a fact that fitting the BMW LSD does not require a recode for ELSD equipped cars.

Edited January 29, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[Matth5 471]

You can disable the E-diff via coding, as well as various other brake helpers like brake fade compensation. I've read up that some people prefer these brake helpers off for track sessions.

Edited January 29, 2019 by Matth5

[M3AN 4016]

Actually, the main problem with a brake based "LSD" (i.e. not an LSD at all) is that you're simply throwing away horsepower. Unwanted power to any given wheel is wasted and burnt away as heat or noise. And you overwork your brakes in the process. With a proper LSD negligible power is wasted by sending torque to a wheel with low traction.

It may work in practice but it's so sub-optimal that it should be discarded for any "proper" car. It would be more accurately called "traction control" than "E-Diff" (or whatever it's called).

 

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

Would certainly seem logical, but all the debates I’ve seen about E-LSD and mechanical LSD, I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from those who are anti E-LSD as to why cars like the McLaren P1, 650S, and now the Senna, all of which are essentially built as a no compromise hypercars, use E-LSD’s by choice over Torsen or clutch type mechanical LSD’s. 

I don’t think the argument is as simple as either side would like it to be. 

[Eagle 1679]

I remember Chris Harris writing something on the subject in regards to the P1 but given the design and cost of that car im sure they made it work better than a mechanical device in that case. Still think it comes down to your use. If you want to sideways often then a clutch type LSD is a no brainier. For the average new BMW driver the 'e-lsd' is probably adequate. I think its all the BMW's in the middle that don't have either that are the ones that are really bad. My E39 540i manual was terrible even with 275 S001 tyres, either tyres smoke or power cuts, one of the reason i sold it so fast.   

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

Well, I got my answer. See table below. Prices are in NZD excl GST and fitting.

For comparison, US prices direct from BMW and converted to NZD but excl import duty and GST, are:

• M Performance Exhaust - $1627
• M LSD - $3752

Even budgeting $1000 for freight it's still not within a million miles. I'd probably take a punt and pay the extra $500 (less freight) for local supply of the MPE, but the LSD is just off the hook.

Edited January 29, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[M3AN 4016]

18 hours ago, BlackrazorNZ said:

Would certainly seem logical, but all the debates I’ve seen about E-LSD and mechanical LSD, I’ve never been able to get a straight answer from those who are anti E-LSD as to why cars like the McLaren P1, 650S, and now the Senna, all of which are essentially built as a no compromise hypercars, use E-LSD’s by choice over Torsen or clutch type mechanical LSD’s. 

I don’t think the argument is as simple as either side would like it to be. 

I'm certainly not anti E-LSD, especially if they can overcome some of the limitations of most mechanical LSD's (like when an inside wheel lifts and provides no mechanical resistance for the diff to use) but a "system" that uses the brakes for differential action seems inherently flawed (I suspect they're simply an extension of an existing traction control system therefore inexpensive to include in the build).

I really don't know but I'd be surprised if the electronic diffs in those hypercars used the brakes for anything. A limited slip diff should stop over-rotation in the first place, not create it then temper it with an opposing force (brakes).

Mitsubishi have used an electronic (torque vectoring) diff in in some of their cars since the mid to late 90's and they're amazing. Certainly no brakes involved in those.

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by M3AN

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

1 hour ago, M3AN said:

I'm certainly not anti E-LSD

Apologies, I was not trying to infer you were

1 hour ago, M3AN said:

I really don't know but I'd be surprised if the electronic diffs in those hypercars used the brakes for anything. A limited slip diff should stop over-rotation in the first place, not create it then temper it with an opposing force (brakes).

I'll quote direct from the press release docs for the Senna (http://media.mclarenautomotive.com/press-kits/mclaren-senna)

"Complementing ESC and VDC is Brake Steer, a technology McLaren developed for Formula 1™ that was ultimately banned from the sport due to the performance advantage it offered over rivals. This race-bred technology imperceptibly brakes the inside rear wheel to enhance turn-in and reduce understeer, encouraging the driver to apply the throttle earlier. This significantly enhances the agility of the McLaren Senna and removes the requirement for a traditional limited-slip differential, saving weight and reducing component complexity."

A whole lot of marketing waffle, but the last line (and other relevant info online) confirms that, as with the P-1, the Senna uses a brake-controlled E-Diff system where mechanically the diff is fully Open. I guess in their case, the traction benefit of a mechanical LSD was outweighed by the performance loss the extra weight added. I guess when you've got over 1000hp per tonne, every kilo matters!

Edited January 30, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[M3AN 4016]

I see, so it's not really an LSD at all, it just emulates what and LSD does (and apparently outperforms one). On face value it seems like an inefficient use of torque but I suppose, if you have more torque than you can practically put through the rubber, there's no need to be particularly efficient.

I assume though that that logic would not translate to lesser cars... if you have "100 torques" to send to the rear wheels and you send some of that to a slipping wheel, even if you prevent that wheel from actually slipping, you've robbed the other wheel of that potential twist.

It'll all be electronic when we have motors driving each wheel independently and a central control module regulating the power each puts out based on a bunch of sensors... so we better get used to it! Sigh.

Thanks for the info, it is interesting.

 

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

Yeh I do prefer the bullet proofness (is that a word?) of the mechanical option, but it seems like E-diffs are here to stay - the i30N has one, the new Polo and Golf GTI has one, and I’m sure more to come. 

[Jacko 2158]

Dunno if you have driven a regular E-LSD hard, they are awful. Like properly awful. Im sure Mclaren is in a different league due to hardware/software driving it, but in a 1/3 series its just crap, even on the road.

If you're buying groceries E-LSD is fine, if your enjoying even a slighted spirited drive on a B road though its going to drive you crazy, particularly if it starts raining.

Dash lights up like a christmas tree and nanny steps in and ends all fun. With E-LSD still enabled and a proper mechanical LSD (Quaife in my case) it is epiccally more tractive when grip drops off, and is 100000% more predictable when it does. Also nanny on the dash remains very quiet, whatever algorithm is controlling the E-LSD must compare wheel speed before axles speeds step in under the stability control, its possible to get much more sideways even with full nanny turned on (and without it sucking power away). To give you an idea of the difference in traction levels off the line, My 130 apparently did 0-100 in 6.3s when new, now my 130 which has 250,000km on a totally stock engine etc does 5.8s and would go lower if I was was being meaner to the clutch! 

If your serious about getting an LSD, Hit up Birds in the UK, its not cheap (cheaper than BMWNZ!) but they know their sh*t. 

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

Does anyone know if any of the service departments at NZ BMW dealerships will fit a BMW LSD that was not purchased from them, and if not, will fitting one via a credible aftermarket service agent void any warranties?

I'm talking specifically about the actual factory BMW Drexler LSD, not an aftermarket option like Quaife or Wavetrac.

Edited January 31, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[qube 3570]

might be easier to just give them a ring and ask them?

[Eagle 1679]

I agree but you'd think they would given you just bought a new car off them and they are surely still are making profit on the install.

[Matth5 471]

1 hour ago, Jacko said:

If your serious about getting an LSD, Hit up Birds in the UK, its not cheap (cheaper than BMWNZ!) but they know their sh*t. 

Speedfactor NZ (in Tauranga) can supply the MFactory LSDs. Easier than importing and their prices are actually reasonable. 

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

1 hour ago, qube said:

might be easier to just give them a ring and ask them?

For some weird reason I hate talking to vendors until I already know exactly what I want to do.