135i n54 on track stutter when hot

[monkeygod11 4]

Just seeing if anyone has any ideas or has had this happen to them.

Car has been tuned and has xhp flash on the 6 speed auto trans. After around 6-10 laps once the car starts getting real hot (analogue oil temp gauge on the dash showing 120-125c) it stutters, almost feels like a misfire but no codes come up at all when on WOT around 4k RPM.

Have been told it's probably the oil and transmission getting too hot and that a transmission cooler and an upgraded oil cooler should fix the problem but they're not cheap so trying to make sure they will actually fix it before dropping the cash. I'm on the track again this Saturday and will try to get some logs to see if they can provide any useful info. 

Appreciate any insights anyone has, cheers

[Matth5 471]

Custom tune? Can you easily flash the stock map?

With a tune the car is creating even more heat than normal, and on a track you are pushing it very hard to it's limit unlike what it sees on street. Probably too much for the stock cooling system to handle.

Seen a few cases of these engines having rod bearing failure on track from other forums, and had the same in my own N55. Would recommend to stick to stock or a mild tune without some additional oil cooling.

Suggest having a read:
https://www.spoolstreet.com/threads/addressing-n5x-oiling-and-spun-rod-bearings-accusump-installed.4034/

Also check your oil level is right at max to minimize any oil flow issues under high Gs.

Tracked my 335i on a stage 2+ tune, no oil/cooling upgrades, and a possibility the oil was not at max. 25 mins of track time before it seized lol.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Matth5

[monkeygod11 4]

So the stuttering sounds likely to be a result of the heat either from the engine or transmission? 

Yea custom dyno tuned at eurosurgeon so not easy to flash back to stock. 

Thanks for the info will have a good read and looks like I better start saving for my transmission and oil coolers, the tune I have is way too much fun to go back to stock. 

[Matth5 471]

Hard to say, but could be. Maybe intake temps are too high? Do you have an upgraded intercooler?

A tune that copes fine on the street is not necessarily going to do well on track.

I guess Eurosurgeon don't provide the option of giving you the tune in a file that you can flash yourself with MHD?

Edited May 10, 2021 by Matth5

[Matth5 471]

I'd also suggest setting up a phone or tablet with MHD with logging and live data. keep an eye on temps and oil pressure. i think you can set it to flash the screen or something if some values go too high.

Should give you enough warning so you don't end up needing a new engine

[monkeygod11 4]

Still on the stock intercooler. 

Yea that's true at the time I wasn't thinking of track days but now I'm doing them I should probably go back and see if the tune should be changed. Will ask them about the tune file.

Have got hold of a Bluetooth obd dongle thing and will use it this Saturday to show live data and try and get some logs to hopefully point me in the right direction of where to upgrade first. 

What sort of temps should I start worrying about? 

Thanks for your advice so far!

[Matth5 471]

First upgrade these cars benefit from is the intercooler. There's a cheap Chinese Ebay/Aliexpress one sold under various brands that does pretty well. Will not give a magic performance boost itself but will prevent performance degrading from the intercooler (and this intake temps) getting hotter after consecutive pulls. 

I'd say oil and cooloant temps should ideally stay around the regular operating temp range but maybe you'll get better info by searching around. Intake temps are worth watching too, as they go up your car starts pulling timing and performance slows down, that might be the stutters you feel but I'm not sure.

[Ninjaspartan 23]

Hey, I tracked my n54 335i on MHD stage 1+. I did spin a bearing but that was due to oil starvation.... Fan belt inside the engine from previous owner. 

Anyways, that oil temp is fine at 120c, it does depend on your oil type but if its fresh oil before the track day thats fine. The hotter the oil gets the faster it breaks down, where it becomes too thin. 
I reached temps of 140c with no hesitation in performance, this was with stock intercooler but catless downpipes. Tranmission is a DCT and I had no over heading issues with the trans during the track day. 
I believe 149c it throws a warning for the oil temp.  

Unsure of your mods, but if you are at 370hp (quick google of Eurosurgeon tune) on stock systems I would high recomend you go full bolt on (FBO).
As Matthew said, high intake temps will pull timing on these cars. 
 

Also +1 for using MHD, super easy and fast to use, also pretty cheap IMO.  

[jon dee 500]

Yeah... I'd agree with getting some logs to see what is actually going on. Oil temp at 120C is getting up there. And 6-10 laps of hard WOT pulls thru the gears only relieved by a bit of off-throttle braking into corners is likely to push the intercooler temp up and efficiency down resulting in high IAT's. Add in a tune that no doubt has pushed the timing up a bit and you have a recipe for detonation around peak torque. 

If you get knock in that zone there is a good chance the ECU is pulling timing. Logs will tell the story !!!

Cheers...

Edited May 10, 2021 by jon dee
Removing detrius...

[qube 3570]

120c was "normal" temp for my N55 M135i. I would be worried if it got any higher though.

sounds like new intercooler/FBO is a good safe upgrade regardless.

[monkeygod11 4]

Mods are

Dyno tuned to 340whp, xhp transmission flash stage 2, catless downpipes and an upgraded charge pipe.

So have just discovered I'm not going to be able to get the oil temp logged this Saturday as seems only things like MHD and Carly can get this info on the e82 and I won't be able to get my hands on their adapters in time, anyone know how accurate the gauge on the dash is?

I know it's so hard to nail down what could be causing this as it only happens on the track, but starting to think it could be the intercooler, I remember they said 340whp was the max they could get with it in it's current state as it was getting heat soaked, once it's fully hot on the track the stutter/knock starts around the 3.5/4krpm range, then once I let it cool it's fine until it heats up again.

Could anyone point me in the right direction of the intercooler to get on Aliexpress? There's just a bunch and quite hard to tell which is a decent one.

Thanks all for the advice so far!

 

[jon dee 500]

2 hours ago, monkeygod11 said:

Could anyone point me in the right direction of the intercooler to get on Aliexpress? There's just a bunch and quite hard to tell which is a decent one.

Thread right here... https://bimmersport.co.nz/topic/65398-n54-intercoolers-nz-source/

Cheers...

[jon dee 500]

This is an interesting thread as I went thru a similar process trying to cure a mid range stumble on a small supercharged engine (not a BMW). It showed up as a droop in the boost trace over a span of around 1000rpm, and I managed to convince myself (wrongly as it turned out) that  it was an ignition breakdown/spark blowout event. Below that rpm band the engine pulled hard and above the band it ran fine all the way to redline.

I tried everything I could think of... upgraded the ignition from twin coil packs and wasted spark to COP's fired sequentially; tried one step and two step colder plugs; tried non-projected insulator plugs; multiple different settings for the water/meth injection; changed to larger injectors to make sure I had enough fuel and keep the IDC below 85%... made innumerable logs and minor adjustments to the fuel map, but nothing worked. Finally, I tried backing off a few degrees of timing in the ignition map and dang me if the droop in the boost trace disappeared

In my defense, I have to say that although I had a knock detector wired to the ECU it was essentially useless. There was just too much mechanical noise (false knock) in the frequency band where real knock could be expected. Anyways, once I had the timing sorted it ran like a champ. Sold the car to Australia and the guy that bought it told me when he took it for a run it ran like a dog... wouldn't take full throttle were his exact words ???? Couldn't figure that out for quite a while until he told me it was about 40deg that day. I also doubt that he had put any water in the injection tank, so the engine which was tuned for 20deg ambient here in Wellington was sucking in hot air with no water for charge cooling. Poor little engine must have been knocking like crazy  

I felt a bit guilty about that for a while, as TBH I clean forgot that the car might need to be re-tuned and have the cooling system upgraded for Australian conditions. It worked fine without an intercooler and never over heated here in NZ, but an extra 20deg ambient changes things quite a bit. All of this is likely irrelevant to your particular hesitation issue, but will give you an idea of what happens when you don't keep an open mind to any of the many possibilities that can cause a stumble.

Cheers...

 

[Ninjaspartan 23]

4 hours ago, monkeygod11 said:

So have just discovered I'm not going to be able to get the oil temp logged this Saturday as seems only things like MHD and Carly can get this info on the e82 and I won't be able to get my hands on their adapters in time, anyone know how accurate the gauge on the dash is?

Most intercoolers on aliexpress will be an upgrade over stock. The stock intercooler is tiny. 

For the logging, not so interested in the oil temps, more interested in the IAT's, target boost, Throttle position vs pedal position, timing etc. 

Re adapters, MHD can work with a D+K can cable or its own wireless adapter. 

[jon dee 500]

26 minutes ago, Ninjaspartan said:

 Throttle position vs pedal position, timing etc.

Minor thread jack... I noticed that my logs show the throttle opening to 80% and staying there when my foot says go WOT. Is that a normal BMW thing ? Something to do with the ECU considering that 80% TPS is optimum for intake velocity/power ?

Cheers...

[Ninjaspartan 23]

1 minute ago, jon dee said:

Minor thread jack... I noticed that my logs show the throttle opening to 80% and staying there when my foot says go WOT. Is that a normal BMW thing ? Something to do with the ECU considering that 80% TPS is optimum for intake velocity/power ?

Cheers...

Yup thats correct at 81. Not sure why but its a normal bmw thing, well on the n54 at least. 

[monkeygod11 4]

Thanks John I'll use that store on Aliexpress you did, looks good and even if it doesn't fix my issue a better intercooler isn't going to hurt. Appreciate the story too, good example of not getting too focused on one thing.

33 minutes ago, Ninjaspartan said:

For the logging, not so interested in the oil temps, more interested in the IAT's, target boost, Throttle position vs pedal position, timing etc.

Cheers will play around with the app (Car Scanner) I've found and make sure I've got those set up before Saturday.

[jon dee 500]

21 hours ago, jon dee said:

 Oil temp at 120C is getting up there.

Times change... 120 deg used to be considered a safe max but a bit of digging shows that the N54 is apparently designed to run hot. In the warmer climate of the US of A temps of 130-132 are not considered unusual when pushing the car reasonably hard. I also read that if you reach 160 the car will go into limp-mode ? After that I went and checked to see if my car has the factory oil cooler, and it does   Apparently some earlier models did not get the cooler.

Considering that the gauge temp is likely the pan temp, oil temp in the bearings can be 20 deg higher. So safe to say that the N54 works the oil pretty hard and if you go racing you want to have some fresh high quality stuff in the pan. High temps degrade the oil fast and since your oil is the only thing between the bearings and disaster, it is not something to cheap out on. 

Cheers...

[jake1829 119]

•  

On 5/9/2021 at 9:38 PM, monkeygod11 said:

Just seeing if anyone has any ideas or has had this happen to them.

Car has been tuned and has xhp flash on the 6 speed auto trans. After around 6-10 laps once the car starts getting real hot (analogue oil temp gauge on the dash showing 120-125c) it stutters, almost feels like a misfire but no codes come up at all when on WOT around 4k RPM.

Have been told it's probably the oil and transmission getting too hot and that a transmission cooler and an upgraded oil cooler should fix the problem but they're not cheap so trying to make sure they will actually fix it before dropping the cash. I'm on the track again this Saturday and will try to get some logs to see if they can provide any useful info. 

Appreciate any insights anyone has, cheers

 

Unfortunately this is not a cheap/easy to solve.

Also - i am assuming when you're at the track , you've reflashed and changed the MHD cooling option to race

I would start backing off once i saw oil temp hit 140 at the track

Oil and coolant temps go hand in hand ,  just upgrading the oil cooler to a bigger version might give you one or 2 more laps

 

• ER Oil Cooler
• BMW PPK kit retrofitted ( bigger fan / additional radiator etc)
• CSF Radiator
• BMS thermostat  ( would recommended the Mosselman N54 Oil Thermostat instead)

 

With the above mods and E50 map - was able to do a 15min track sessions without buttoning off.  Was looking at doing a  transmission cooler and upgraded turbos  (stock ones are just full on heaters at this stage ^^ ) 

but with all the cooling upgrades on car...daily driving was kinda meh as it would take ages to get to temp before you could go WOT. I could leave the office near nelson street,  jump onto the motorway...get off at manukau and its just got to temp  / normal city driving would take a little bit longer to get to temp

In retrospect now - I think WMI system would of helped alot

On 5/10/2021 at 3:18 PM, qube said:

120c was "normal" temp for my N55 M135i. I would be worried if it got any higher though.

sounds like new intercooler/FBO is a good safe upgrade regardless.

^^ how could you tell? j/king  That was the big difference daily driving M135i , no freaking gauge like the 335i so i knew when it was warm enough to go WOT / had to use the MHD app before

Having pure turbos stage 2 ....daily driving temp is 95-100

Did a track session the other week at hampton...think i saw the M135i oil temp got to 118 lol >.<

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

09_Cooling Systems.pdf

[monkeygod11 4]

29 minutes ago, jake1829 said:

 

• ER Oil Cooler
• BMW PPK kit retrofitted ( bigger fan / additional radiator etc)
• CSF Radiator
• BMS thermostat  ( would recommended the Mosselman N54 Oil Thermostat instead)

With the above mods and E50 map - was able to do a 15min track sessions without buttoning off.  Was looking at doing a  transmission cooler and upgraded turbos  (stock ones are just full on heaters at this stage ^^ )

Getting 15 or 20 min session done without issues is the dream, looks like I better see if anyone will give me a good price on this extra kidney I have.

Will see how Saturday goes and see what I get from the logs, hopefully it'll point me in a direction of what to sort first.

[Matth5 471]

If you really want to do regular track sessions, you can either pour away money to make a street car survive the track.... or you can get a car that's track capable in the first place.

E46 M3 or E90 if the budget allows... all they need is track brake pads and you're set. 

135is and 335is are awesome fun cars but aren't really built for abuse on the track, and tuning them just increases the issues. Jake1829 here has made his into a good track toy but at a very high cost 

[monkeygod11 4]

I just want to be able to go do a track day maybe once a month or bimonthly and it not die but I get what you're saying.

10 minutes ago, Matth5 said:

E46 M3 or E90 if the budget allows... all they need is track brake pads and you're set.

lol seen the price of M3s? Definitely not in the budget 😥

Have looked at 328s and 323s as maybe a cheaper way of getting a track only car but by the time that is sorted may as well just fix my 135 up

[jon dee 500]

Some interesting stuff in that .pdf linked above. Looks like the ECU starts cutting back the power as temps go up until eventually you reach limp-mode levels if things get hot enough. Read quite a few threads about high engine and oil temps but never saw any reference to a gradual cut back ? Maybe most drivers just see the oil temp heading North and back off before the ECU reads 150 deg ? I know I would

Cheers...

[Matth5 471]

3 hours ago, monkeygod11 said:

I just want to be able to go do a track day maybe once a month or bimonthly and it not die but I get what you're saying.

lol seen the price of M3s? Definitely not in the budget 😥

Have looked at 328s and 323s as maybe a cheaper way of getting a track only car but by the time that is sorted may as well just fix my 135 up

As an upfront cost it may look high, but a few years of tracking and trying to upgrade+maintain the 135i, + the depreciation, and you'll lose the same if not more. The M cars hold value well too. I don't see any E46 M3s up for sale currently, maybe wait for some to pop up and they might be cheaper. There are a lot of E90s atm, might be able to negotiate their prices down...

Get it on finance

Just consider it for your long term planning, and don't blow the budget too much on the 135i.

Just saying this as I would have been better off if I just got a bigger loan and bought an E92 M3 instead of my 335i in the first place back in 2015 lol. I went pretty far with mods and ended up seizing the engine on a track day.  Sold the car for only a little more than what I spent on the engine replacement...

With the M4, all I do it swap the brake pads, absolutely nothing else, thrash it all day on the track with no issues. 3 track days so far.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Matth5

[monkeygod11 4]

39 minutes ago, Matth5 said:

Get it on finance

Haha nah have learnt my lesson on doing that. A Z3 looks like fun as a track car and not too pricey. Surprising how in NZ if you want a cheap car with decent handling and power BMWs are pretty much the only option (not that I'm complaining)