F80 M3 Base audio system upgrade

[Dogballs 115]

Ive just done the ENTRYNAV to NBTevo ID6 upgrade. (and 6WB retrofit ) 

If you have a Enet cable, Id recommend software called bimmerUtility WEBSITE its cost effective, with good UI. - Coding UI is ALOT easier than ESYS.

A speaker amp upgrade is next on my list, so watching your project with interest..

[Neal 543]

1 hour ago, Dogballs said:

Ive just done the ENTRYNAV to NBTevo ID6 upgrade. (and 6WB retrofit ) 

If you have a Enet cable, Id recommend software called bimmerUtility WEBSITE its cost effective, with good UI. - Coding UI is ALOT easier than ESYS.

A speaker amp upgrade is next on my list, so watching your project with interest..

Thanks , looks like it has a better UI. Ironically  I’d brought BimmerCode thinking it would work throughout this project, but it’s useless once id6 hardware is introduced.

Esys looks reasonably complex , plenty of room to stuff things up. Just getting through the Bimmerdoc tutorials on YouTube.

 

 

[Dogballs 115]

BU will VO code your HU in about 20sec, or if you’ve made retrofits without FA updating, you can individually change the settings easy enough. 
3 of the 4 things you need to code are easy, the odd one being the phone cradle. 
You may need to change the USB options to activate usb2 and/or activate the usb hub option depending on the phone cradle config.. I’d try VO coding it first if your FA is stock/up to date. 

esys comes with a complimentary “I hope this doesn’t screw it up” feeling every you are about to press the code button.. 

BimmerUtility = easy

[Neal 543]

Your right !   Just running through the BU videos. I like that warning for esys , get the checkbox wrong and all ECU's default. Great way to turn the car into a teapot. Haven't done any real coding , scripting in about 15 years. Menu driven coding  looks good !

 

BTW , do you still do stereo builds ? I remember you worked in the industry years back .

Edited December 24, 2023 by Neal

[Dogballs 115]

Nope, Not me doing stereo builds?..

about all I’ve done is a few factory retrofits of HK, HiFi etc.. 
 

 

[Neal 543]

54 minutes ago, Dogballs said:

Nope, Not me doing stereo builds?..

about all I’ve done is a few factory retrofits of HK, HiFi etc.. 
 

 

Sorry , got you mixed up with another member that lives your way.

BTW , Brought Bimmer Utility , thanks for the tip.

Sorted Harman Kardon coding and camera module type in about 10 mins so working correctly.

Just need to spend some time to have the phone snapin adapter reappear under USB inputs.

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Neal

[Dogballs 115]

Good to hear you have that working..

for your snapin, have a look at this thread: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1228584 it may give you some clues... 

OR If you VO code the HU it should sort the coding for the snapin, and then afterwards adjust HK coding...  (assuming the vehicle has the snapin adaptor factory /FA coded already)

there is a number of USB settings/combos available, so that's where VO coding it is the easy option - but FA must be correct first!

(when using bummer utility to modify the FA - after completing FA coding, it will then ask if you want to VO code affected modules. (yes / no option) - very handy feature. but of course will reset any custom codings on the said modules.)

good luck...

[BMTHUG 1055]

This thread has inspired me! Off to work I go on audio upgrades for my f30

[Neal 543]

On 12/27/2023 at 9:11 PM, Dogballs said:

Good to hear you have that working..

for your snapin, have a look at this thread: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1228584 it may give you some clues... 

OR If you VO code the HU it should sort the coding for the snapin, and then afterwards adjust HK coding...  (assuming the vehicle has the snapin adaptor factory /FA coded already)

there is a number of USB settings/combos available, so that's where VO coding it is the easy option - but FA must be correct first!

(when using bummer utility to modify the FA - after completing FA coding, it will then ask if you want to VO code affected modules. (yes / no option) - very handy feature. but of course will reset any custom codings on the said modules.)

good luck...

Thanks, really helpful , will check HU coding as car VO had 6NS coded for USB and ATM module.

 

[Olaf 3317]

Lossless audio?  Disc space is now very cheap, stick with uncompressed WAV - still the best sounding file format (and - coincidentally -  lowest processing overhead) for people that listen to music!

[Neal 543]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:31 PM, Olaf said:

Lossless audio?  Disc space is now very cheap, stick with uncompressed WAV - still the best sounding file format (and - coincidentally -  lowest processing overhead) for people that listen to music!

Good point. I don’t think I have it in me to re rip CD collection.  But BMWs idrive is great in that has played the various lossless codecs on my 256 gig hard drive. It will even sample down hi res Flac files that are also on the drive.

Still disappointed that BMW CarPlay is wifi only so no LPCM capability that you get with CarPlay usb.

[Olaf 3317]

GIGO!  Garbage In, Garbage Out. 

How much data did you throw away when you ripped your CD collection?  If you ripped to FLAC, at least you can re-convert to WAV with dBpoweramp music converter.

 

[kwhelan 241]

11 hours ago, Olaf said:

GIGO!  Garbage In, Garbage Out. 

How much data did you throw away when you ripped your CD collection?  If you ripped to FLAC, at least you can re-convert to WAV with dBpoweramp music converter.

 

yes technically but for the sake of practicality I'd like to see your ears reliably prove they could tell the difference, especially in a moving car,if your over 25 it would be impossible

Audiophiles are a bit rabbithole OCD argueing over the dacs in their cd players to start with

[Olaf 3317]

I have reliably demonstrated I can hear the difference between FLAC and WAV on many home systems.  So I use WAV.  People argue that FLAC is best "because tagging and artwork".  When I ask if they've bothered to listen to the differences, the room goes quiet.  I tag and put artwork on my WAV rips, so the usability difference is NIL. 

I agree - the car is a sh*t place to listen to music.  However, Neal has gone to extraordinary lengths to make his car a great place to listen to music.  I'd venture that you'd easily hear the difference between 320k MP3 and FLAC, and probably difference to WAV in his car.  Hell, in my X3 stock factory system I can hear the difference between Bluetooth from my phone - 320k Spotify and 'uncompressed' Tidal, then compared the compressed crap BMW stores on the HDD (yecch, unlistenable), and WAV from a USB stick (unquestionably better).  I don't think my X3 will cope with FLAC..

If the source is downsampled rips, it's a case of garbage in, garbage out.  No end of optimisation, amplification, manipulation of the file, or speaker technology can make up for a poor input signal, whether in a home, venue, or car.  I'm in my 50's, taken good care of my hearing, and it's starting to decline - it's still easy to hear where the music is slaughtered by the tech, on simple equipment.  You need only open your ears.  This has nothing to do with which DAC to choose.

Edited January 13 by Olaf

[kwhelan 241]

9 hours ago, Olaf said:

 This has nothing to do with which DAC to choose.

That's not what you would say if you read any audiophile article discussing the best sacd player, they go to enormous lengths discussing the dacs,

I'm not dissing his build I'm very jealous, its incredible but Considering both wav and flac are lossless and you mentioned he could convert his flac back to wav ( is that going to make it sound better?) and the general consensus is no one can tell the difference your ears must be super good for a 50 year old

[Olaf 3317]

20 hours ago, kwhelan said:

That's not what you would say if you read any audiophile article discussing the best sacd player, they go to enormous lengths discussing the dacs,

I'm not dissing his build I'm very jealous, its incredible but Considering both wav and flac are lossless and you mentioned he could convert his flac back to wav ( is that going to make it sound better?) and the general consensus is no one can tell the difference your ears must be super good for a 50 year old

My ears super-good for a 50 year old?  No!  The point is, I'm listening and responding to music.  My hearing has been measured and is worsening.  I can still tell sh*t from clay!  Hint:  It's not about frequency response.  It's not about soundstage or other artifacts of the US High End Hifi Press.  Just listen to the music.  Or don't. 

As for SACD, I could never understand why - for the forty-odd albums available at launch, why you'd bother.  Well-implemented Red Book CD Players sounded better; most "SACD Fanboys" had never experienced good Red Book CD, or a decent turntable.   

WAV is uncompressed audio.  FLAC is lossless audio via the algorithm - but the file size is compressed.  The general consensus you refer to is formed by folks that can't tell the difference between two violas and a cello, and sit on the edge of their seats straining to hear the difference in "the soundstage", and probably never attend live concerts, have no frame of reference.  Don't listen to the consensus, listen to your ears!

[kwhelan 241]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

My ears super-good for a 50 year old?  No!  The point is, I'm listening and responding to music.  My hearing has been measured and is worsening.  I can still tell sh*t from clay!  Hint:  It's not about frequency response.  It's not about soundstage or other artifacts of the US High End Hifi Press.  Just listen to the music.  Or don't. 

As for SACD, I could never understand why - for the forty-odd albums available at launch, why you'd bother.  Well-implemented Red Book CD Players sounded better; most "SACD Fanboys" had never experienced good Red Book CD, or a decent turntable.   

WAV is uncompressed audio.  FLAC is lossless audio via the algorithm - but the file size is compressed.  The general consensus you refer to is formed by folks that can't tell the difference between two violas and a cello, and sit on the edge of their seats straining to hear the difference in "the soundstage", and probably never attend live concerts, have no frame of reference.  Don't listen to the consensus, listen to your ears!

wow, were not talking sh*t from clay though are we, your claiming you can hear the difference in wav over flac on what is obviously high end equipment so pretty faithfully being reproduced.

Look I'm a musician, I record mix and have plenty of sound stage and studio engineering reference, human hearing is like colour perception and completely personal, the only measurable constant is frequency response really, eg: women for example hear completely differently to men which is why they will wince and say this bars music  is too loud way before men notice, their ears are tuned to accentuate higher freq responses (theory is programmed to hearing babies cry,)audio is even humidity referenced so changes with the weather and temp

all your lps were compressed multiple times, at original recording, at mixing,at mastering,

your argument is getting silly and condescending implying that folks can't tell the difference between violas and cellos and its just an undeniable fact that hearing deteriorates with age and your old although possibly an exception to the norm. Your also arguing that their are no differences in the digital to analogue conversions due to the dacs and their permutations and quality which is crazy,. Why do you think there are massive markets for external usb headphone dacs, ,wouldn't a macbooks audio chip be just as good? surely your ears can hear the difference

this has got silly now and unrelated to the original posters thread, apologies Neal so I will leave it at this. I  disagree on the use of wav being necessary

[Olaf 3317]

You doubt I can hear the difference, you're welcome to your opinion.

To recap: 

• You've doubted I can reliably hear the difference.  And that in a moving car it couldn't happen.  I've responded to the points you made, noted that I'm older and my hearing is degrading, and furnished my experience.
• You've raised choice of DAC - I've said that's irrelevant - to this discussion. 
• You've suggested my opinion would change if I read audiophile discussions, inferring I don't understand.   I read the audio comics for years, and indulged in internet discussion.  
• You present a straw man about hearing degradation and perception differences between the sexes.  
• You disagree, though you misquote me - I have not said WAV is necessary - I've said it's better, and questioned why throw data away when disc space is cheap.  

At every point I've expressed - all based on my experiences - you've simply attempted to cast shadow.  You claim my argument is silly and condescending; what has yours been?  I've only presented my experience, that clearly does not align with your opinion.  You've gotten personal.  

[Neal 543]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:32 PM, Olaf said:

GIGO!  Garbage In, Garbage Out. 

How much data did you throw away when you ripped your CD collection?  If you ripped to FLAC, at least you can re-convert to WAV with dBpoweramp music converter.

 

I have a few formats unfortunately on my thumb drive., Apple Lossless for the iPhone files, was doing WMA lossless for a while , Flac in 16/44.1 and 96/24 , and some dodgy variable bit rate MP3s😀 But most of time it 320k Spotify, although the highs aren’t great over CarPlay.

With the BMW Most 25 , audio is sampled at 16/44.1khz so should do bit perfect CD quality, but wouldn’t WAVE format need a Analogue to digital process within the head unit ?  Was thinking that digital source should just get transferred straight from source to the digital bus. The aux sounds reasonable when playing music via clean audio source.

I’ll rip a few fave CDs to Wav file and compare. I would class this system as a mid tiered system in car audio with an extensive amount of digital manipulation of the front active three way system. For a car system it’s sounding quite good with the stage sitting above the dash and out to the bonnet. But compared to home hifi the tweeters and door mids are more off axis and unequal angles. But low frequency is an easy ride  , must be 15db of cabin in sub bass regions. Getting 115db plus at 15hz with a 12 inch and with more on tap.

Doing RTAs has been halirous , can’t hear beyond  11khz ( Brillance spectrum of treble $ . But for the tonal frequencies I can here can certainly pick the differences of well recorded and higher bit rates.

I’ll get you to critique the system once I’ve fine tuned the system for tonal balance. Obviously won’t have the clarity but it’s not bad so far.
 

Edited January 19 by Neal

[kwhelan 241]

all your formats are digital, pcm for wav and then converted to analogue to be heard or fed to speakers

analogue storage was the old large tape reels in studios which you physically cut with a razor to edit

https://www.whathifi.com/advice/mp3-aac-wav-flac-all-the-audio-file-formats-explained

Edited January 19 by kwhelan

[Neal 543]

Thanks, wasn’t sure if WAV was PCM. 
Understand the rest of the chain , just trying to avoid DADDA in the chain for critical listening. Up with most of the codecs used in audio and video but never bothered with Wav. Like the Metadata with other formats.

Hobby background in building pre / power amps , guitar pedals etc  as a teen for a side job. So had a good handle on analogue side of things. Quite like the idea of some of these newer  cap-less opamps (EG  Sabre ) Fewer components in the audio chain. 

But this car amp is all shark based DSP with reasonably good class D output devices running balanced inputs. With car audio a well tuned system will trump esoteric equipment that hasn’t been. Quite a bit of a learning curve.

[kwhelan 241]

1 hour ago, Neal said:

Thanks, wasn’t sure if WAV was PCM. 
Understand the rest of the chain , just trying to avoid DADDA in the chain for critical listening. Up with most of the codecs used in audio and video but never bothered with Wav. Like the Metadata with other formats.

Hobby background in building pre / power amps , guitar pedals etc  as a teen for a side job. So had a good handle on analogue side of things. Quite like the idea of some of these newer  cap-less opamps (EG  Sabre ) Fewer components in the audio chain. 

But this car amp is all shark based DSP with reasonably good class D output devices running balanced inputs. With car audio a well tuned system will trump esoteric equipment that hasn’t been. Quite a bit of a learning curve.

yeah the signal has been converted and compressed a/d and back multiple times before it made it to your source say a cd which is only 44 anyway.

quality of the dac in the player does make a difference but funnily not so much in the ripping process because ripping does multiple passes until it basically has the full spectrum covered where playback just gets the one pass of the data

flac being 32bit 96k is higher than the original source cd was recorded to begin with

pedal builds are so interesting and such a rabbit hole, good money to be made too and the vintage market has made old stuff worth moonbeams now but argueing over the sound of different caps is a bit OTT for me

Dsp makes sense in a car for sure you can hardly run nice warm tubes, I think Ai will soon take all this hassle away and mix/eq things live, when you think it can now pull the originals stems out of a finished track perfectly then mixing and eq is going to be a breeze

Edited January 19 by kwhelan

[Neal 543]

DSP tuning / time alignment again.

I've been around this a couple of times over the last few months. I've gone a step further with time alignment of the individual speakers. Doing two DSP maps. One with time alignment done to drivers set and a second map one for front and rear passengers where the alignment point will be ear level between the driver and passenger seats.

For the drivers seat map the fader is set so the rear speakers are just on to provide a bit of rear fill. The idea is to get the image to sit forward above the dash. 

Process for tuning

• Time alignment using a pulse for tweeters and mid range using the initial response method. 
• Under seat woofers will be phase aligned , but initial response will be used and then altered for phase.
• Subwoofer will be phase aligned with under seat woofers.
• Individual appropriate frequency sweeps for each of the speakers
• Select a target curve to tune speakers to follow
• Equalizer each speaker to a target curve ( there are a few to choose from  so I'm picking Audiofrogs variation of the Harman curve)
• Check left and then right sides of car
• Retune or tweak final response

[Neal 543]

Been watching a whole bunch of tuning videos on phase alignment for the sub and mid bass. More work to do in the dsp.

In the meantime I got around to installing more sound damping / deadener. When with Dynamat in the end . They have a new version of Dynamat extreme in flat sheets.A bit tidier to install as the sheets aren’t folded over and crinkled. Product is 2mm which means boot trip and carpets go back in without issue. I treated the boot floor and storage area as it’s a high resonance area. A quick tap and the response is like a metal drum. After treatment it was more of a thud. Should help with cleaner sub bass and a quick unscientific test track ( Gotyee “ why worry” ) has a very heavy bass line and drum kick, sound seem cleaner. Will check the group delay later as the graphs a good for showing resonance.

I left the fuse box area without treatment as wanted this area to look OEM. The panel under it is curved and nice and strong so not really worth treating as well.

Trim and carpet went back into place with good fit and no issues.

 

 

 

 

[kwhelan 241]

your obviously a perfectionist who enjoys this sort of work/play but arn't you concerned with how much extra cost and work,

Genuinely I'd be too scared to drive/leave it anywhere. I f some muppet dings it you can always get a new car but I just can't understand how much time and effort you would lose. I guess its no different to a custom hotrod but this is a daily driver that is at the mercy of joe public really. Not sure I'd sleep at night. Can you even insure this at the level of work and hidden costs that have gone into it?