The Bimmersport Election Poll

[zenetti 0]

You're 100% correct, there always have and always will be. But... this figure can be minimized, much like the Scandanavian nations have done, or it can be increased, as seen in America.

I'm currently still in school (well... uni) and am creating my own wealth, but because of what I'm studying and where I'm working I've come to realize that in nearly all cases, people don't CHOOSE to get minimum pay, and hence have to use WFFTC, similarly people that are unemployed do not CHOOSE to be unemployed, it's often them getting pushed out by society, or not being paid their worth.

The purpose of government agencies is not to create more dependents, they are there to help people survive, the unemployment benefit pays $16k a year, which is less than what I get per year, as a student. If they were really after creating countless dependents they would pay out a hella lot more!

[Edit sorry for the horrible grammar/spelling ~ I'm juggling around a few things atm!]

Just out of interest who is paying for your university education?

[westy 614]

Yeah... but you're not giving away your money to the government, the government distribute your money to make things that the majority of the people here take for granted, like roading, parks, police, fire department etc. Obviously NZ isn't rich enough to support all of this without taxes.

There are places in the world that don't charge you tax, but me personally - I prefer to live here.

Then there's always the motive behind not paying tax, in all honesty, to someone who has $5.8 million, an additional $100k will not make the slightest difference to their lifestyle, yet many people with that sort of wealth continue to falsify the tax department... why? .... greed!

There's more then a touch of young ideology to your thinking.

The passage of time may erode your ideals.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

Just out of interest who is paying for your university education?

Parents help with accommodation/food, all course related costs I pay, which may change within the next 2 years, because I don't know whether I can afford to pay $10k /year just for sitting the papers.

[bravo 35]

I know its easy to generalise (and wrong), but Glenn has a point about people choosing not to work.

Case in point:

A young staff member we hired of a particularly vocal racial minority (esp. when it comes to supposed unfair treatment and claims of lack of opportunities) was given an opportunity few (none?) his age (17, now 18) or education level (dropped out in 5th form)would get.

We gave him a job paying just over minimum wage. Working conditions are fairly good, hours reasonable (4.30pm knock-off, 1 hour lunch break), varied and interesting work. He also received flexibility in taking leave, we paid him sick pay before he had been with us 3 months (not required to by law), and paid for him to undergo work-based training for an industry qualification (at a cost of several hundred dollars plus travel and wages). He was a hard worker and so after a few months we upped his pay to what I consider excellent money for someone in his position. (He agreed mind you). A few weeks after his 18th birthday thigs started to go down hill with absences from work and so on. he received verbal warnings and we tried to help give him motivation to come to work, etc. Then one day without warning he didn't turn up. That was 2 weeks ago and we still havn't heard anything or been able to get hold of him. I managed to get hold of a family member who told me "he just can't be bothered coming to work".

How stupid can you be? If he had stayed with us for 4 or 5 years we would have trained up to technician level and he would receive (in todays money) around $45-50k, and been working in some of the best working conditions in any company I've worked for.

He threw it all away to get on the piss. And they claim - its not our fault, we just don't get the opportunities other sectors of society do. bullshit.

PS. Anyone want a job? Starting just above min. wage?

I'd hate to think how much he's cost the company in wasted time and money.

Edited November 4, 2008 by bravo

[antony 0]

People now have to pay for private health care because the current public system is a joke. In my home region, you can't even conceive a child, you have to go to Canterbury to give birth!

And what do you think the Police are doing, giving us fines, that is all. They are utterly useless if you have a burglary at your house.

Our roads are a joke, have you driven on any out of Auckland?

Parks are no longer safe, due to our ridiculous crime rates.

What I'm saying, is these "services" that supposedly our tax money goes towards are in the pits.

E: to make sense, cause some posts have came between mine and the one I was referring to.

Edited November 4, 2008 by antony

[Avenged.SSE 0]

There's more then a touch of young ideology to your thinking.

The passage of time may erode your ideals.

I think you're right... hopefully the greed doesn't kick in too soon Although... I have been eyeing that E66 and me thinks it looks oh so good

[Guest Simon*]

My 2c and a little about what I know of the current system

When my ex-wife and I were together and earning we were very smart. Owned a house in Auckland, pumped heaps of our combined income into it when we both worked and while interest rates were low.

When our first son came along she decided to stay at home with him and be a fulltime mum, but we were still in a good position, even though as the HR Director of a major IT company she was the bigger wage earner while I played soldier around the world and got to shoot things and blow sh*t up Soon after this the working for families "tax credit" came into effect and we were surprised to learn that we were eligible - just. I think initially it was something like $13 a fortnight. Not too long passed and our second son was born and we checked into the tax credit pretty promptly this time. Sure enough, despite a couple of pay rises for me, we had a bigger slice of the pie this time. Something like $210 per fortnight. I think we were both a bit embarrassed taking a "benefit" but by this time interest rates were much higher so who's gonna scoff at free money from the communists. Another couple of years go by and my ex and I ended up going our separate ways. All amicable of course.

We moved to Napier so she could be closer to her family and me to be near my boys. I took a considerable paycut in order to find a reasonable job down here in the Bay. At this time we had a private arrangement over childcare, ie she still received working for families and I paid her a good chunk of my new salary. So far, so good.

Unfortunately for me, she let slip to IRD while her conscience got the better of her that we were no longer together and they promptly yanked the working for families off her - well within their rights to do although you might argue that apart from us not living together little had changed. I still worked, she was still at home and we still jointly cared for 2 kids.

Now it gets interesting as our arrangement with child support has to be formalised through the IRD. They evaluate my salary and come up with a monthly figure I have to pay them for having 2 kids (boys, always wear a condom - you don't want to know this pain ) they evaluate salaries retrospectively though. So I'm f**ked for a year paying a percentage of my former, much higher salary from Auckland, when in reality I earn nearly $20K less in my current position. I hate this. I have fought and written and tried to change this but to no avail. And you never get the same person twice when you get hold of IRD, so you end up explaining the issues over and over.

My ex reluctantly takes up the option of the DPB. Now not a decision made lightly, and this is a woman with a Masters in Psychology and in excess of 10 years working at the highest levels of her field who has decided from the outset that she didn't have kids just to let strangers raise them (a decision I support) and doesn't take kindly to being told by people who have no f**king idea to go get a job and put our kids in daycare - more on this soon. WINZ and the IRD struggle to communicate, if at all, and trying to get a solution sorted through both agencies is a disaster. The amount she receives with 2 small kids at home is 5/8 of f**k all. What she has clear at the end of each week after all the bills etc are paid is very minimal.

The big issues here are, if she works, and she has plenty of part time and consulting work lined up if she needs it - as soon as she makes $80 WINZ starts chopping her benefit. Over $150 and they start taking 70 cents out of every dollar. Earn more and it gets worse! So for a woman who can earn about $80 per hour what's her incentive to do more than a couple of hours a week? THIS is something that the Nats are addressing.

Labour has set the system up for absentee dads - of which I'm not one. I have my kids half the time but I pay as if I'd skipped the country. And WINZ is set up for people to bludge, by trapping them at home with no real incentive to supplement their income.

Phew! A little of what I've learned over the last few terms under Labour.

So let's get the stinking reds out I say and let the people who want to work and look after themselves the chance to do so.

By the way the dole was set up way back when as a way for workers to support workers. If by some chance they're weren't enough positions at the works or mill, etc a portion of the active workers' tax was set aside to help them out. It wasn't done begrudgingly but brotherly as it could easily be you who might find yourself out of a job next time. The ratio of workers to those out of work was such though, that it wasn't a huge impediment to those who had to pay. Nowadays however, a lot of the bludgers are professional - and the ratio isn't flash either despite what Labour keep saying.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

They pay for private health care cause the current public system is a joke. In my home region, you can't even conceive a child, you have to go to Canterbury to give birth!

And what do you think the Police are doing for them, giving them fines, that is all. They are utterly useless if you have a burglary at your house.

Our roads are a joke, have driven on any out of Auckland?

Parks are no longer safe, due to our ridiculous crime rates.

What I'm saying, is these "services" that supposedly our tax money goes towards are in the pits.

Yeap, I have driven out of Auckland a number of times, and if you think that's bad, go to poor parts of the world and see what the equivalent of not paying taxes gets ya! In regards to the police, I have required assistance a number of occasions, they have been nothing but helpful in my experience, even when I got ripped off purely due to my own stupidity.

Health care is the way it is ..... due to numerous reasons, I've been reading about them for the past 4 hours, so I'm really not in the mood to go on about the issue, but I don't think NZ can afford a system where you pay nothing at all (and people will complain about hypochondriacs abusing the system) and a fully private health system is one of the dumbest ideas man has come up with

Edited November 4, 2008 by Avenged.SSE

[antony 0]

Stop comparing New Zealand to 3rd world countries. I have also been to some places worse off than New Zealand (Bali, South Africa) and I also know what it's like.

But you can't compare New Zealand with them.

E: And I certainly don't want a full private health system.

Edited November 4, 2008 by antony

[CamB 48]

The big issues here are, if she works, and she has plenty of part time and consulting work lined up if she needs it - as soon as she makes $80 WINZ starts chopping her benefit. Over $150 and they start taking 70 cents out of every dollar. Earn more and it gets worse! So for a woman who can earn about $80 per hour what's her incentive to do more than a couple of hours a week? THIS is something that the Nats are addressing.

Your ex is definitely in the minority. The way the abatement of the DPB works is not meant to be efficient for the 0.00001% of the population which is made up of non-working mothers with PhDs. I'm not sure it is possible to design a system that is fair and suits her.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

Stop comparing New Zealand to 3rd world countries. I have also been to some places worse off than New Zealand (Bali, South Africa) and I also know what it's like.

But you can't compare New Zealand with them.

E: And I certainly don't want a full private health system.

Correct, but... NZ's GDP is comparable to places like Philippines, Algeria, Hungary, Ukraine, Egypt - In fact, all their GDPs are higher than NZs (bar Egypt).

It can't generate enough $$$$$ without taxes to fund stuff.

[Edit - not that I'll pretend to know much about economics, but it just doesn't seem plausible]

Edited November 4, 2008 by Avenged.SSE

[Guest Simon*]

Your ex is definitely in the minority. The way the abatement of the DPB works is not meant to be efficient for the 0.00001% of the population which is made up of non-working mothers with PhDs. I'm not sure it is possible to design a system that is fair and suits her.

I quite agree - in fact I meant to add that she is an obvious minority. Although it's funny how many people I talk to in a similar situation where they have the potential to earn a comfortable living or contribute to a joint income but are staying home for the good of their kids. It's a bit of a bind.

[antony 0]

To fund "stuff", it's all this stuff that we're funding thats the problem. Cut the the crap, and harden up New Zealand.

But quite obviously there is some stuff we need to fund.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

To fund "stuff", it's all this stuff that we're funding thats the problem. Cut the the crap, and harden up New Zealand.

But quite obviously there is some stuff we need to fund.

I guess no one on ze BMW forum seems to understand, you need to look at the other side of the fence, put yourself in their position, minimal education, already minimal pay, and then someone proposes to decrease it further.

The outcomes aren't so obvious, you need to read countless literature before determining what's good/bad, simply blaming people for their circumstance is quite easy, but it's more difficult to find out what got them there in the first place and modifying those factors.

Put yourself in the position of some guy who's getting $30k a year, wife is a stay-at-home mum, or has been recently layed off due to the recession and you're relying on that money to live, then some guy tells you to harden up.....

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people aren't always responsible for their circumstances, and telling them to harden up is just non-conducive. I'm just happy I'm not one of those people in dire needs.

[Mike 1]

I know its easy to generalise (and wrong), but Glenn has a point about people choosing not to work.

Case in point:

A young staff member we hired ....

So what do you do with oxygen thieves like him? I hate the idea of them receiving a benefit too, but what happens if we cut it? would he get off his arse and get another job, or will he just turn to crime? which will cost us more money in the long run?

[e30plz 1]

PS. Anyone want a job? Starting just above min. wage?

I'd hate to think how much he's cost the company in wasted time and money.

What a waste of a great opportunity, he could have had a great future with that,

and alot more piss.. I'd be keen as, If I wasnt going back to school next year and hadn't just got a job.

Edited November 4, 2008 by //James

[bravo 35]

Pm'd dude.

[antony 0]

Seriously a chainman is a great opportunity, and if your looking at studying surveying I would highly recommend spending a year or two working, as it makes the study so much more relevant.

Anywho, back on topic. Avenged.SSE, I've read the odd text book, but how bout some real life experience, my parents started from the "bottom", my mum was a stay at home mum, and my dad spent 33 years working for a state owned enterprise, after which he got made redundant. Whilst my mum bought us up she studied part time, it took her 7 years to get her degree, never once did we receive a handout. My parents have worked F'n hard to be where they are, and whats the government doing for them now, F-All, thats what.

[Avenged.SSE 0]

Seriously a chainman is a great opportunity, and if your looking at studying surveying I would highly recommend spending a year or two working, as it makes the study so much more relevant.

Anywho, back on topic. Avenged.SSE, I've read the odd text book, but how bout some real life experience, my parents started from the "bottom", my mum was a stay at home mum, and my dad spent 33 years working for a state owned enterprise, after which he got made redundant. Whilst my mum bought us up she studied part time, it took her 7 years to get her degree, never once did we receive a handout. My parents have worked F'n hard to be where they are, and whats the government doing for them now, F-All, thats what.

Real life experience? I came into this countries a wee little kid, my parents had nothing, in fact, it was a whole heap of debt to get here - so less than nothing, and they too worked damn hard, but if it wasn't for all that social support we received when we first came, even if it was only a few months, we would never have survived, thankfully both are earning well over 6 figures now, so it doesn't matter anymore... But I'll never forget what its like having to live in those circumstances, and I won't subject anyone else to them.

Working hard is just one little component in the big picture of things, and sometimes it is not enough. Don't be so naive as to think all of life's problems can be solved with hard work, there are other things - outside influences, parental upbringing, education etc. I guess you only tend to appreciate social support if you were in desperate need of it at one point or another!

[antony 0]

I just think you want some perfect world that doesn't exist. Isn't that communism?

[jordyboy2 0]

This is almost turning in to a monty python skit

Yorkshireman IV: You were LUCKY! We lived for three months in a newspaper-lined septic tank! We used to have to get up every morning, at six o'clock and clean the newspaper, go to work down the mill, fourteen hours a day, week in, week out, for sixpence a week, and when we got home, our dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt!

Yorkshireman II: Luxury! We used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, work twenty hours a day at mill, for twopence a month, come home, and dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle... IF we were lucky!

Yorkshireman III: Well, of course, we had it tough! We used to have to get up out of the cardboard box in the middle of the night, and lick the road clean with our tongues! We had to eat half a handful of freezing cold gravel, work twenty-four hours a day at mill for fourpence every six years, and when we got home, our dad would slice us in two with a breadknife!

Yorkshireman I: Right! I had to get up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill and pay mill-owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves, singing Hallelujah!

Yorkshireman IV: Oh, ay. And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you!

[zenetti 0]

Correct, but... NZ's GDP is comparable to places like Philippines, Algeria, Hungary, Ukraine, Egypt - In fact, all their GDPs are higher than NZs (bar Egypt).

It can't generate enough $$$$$ without taxes to fund stuff.

[Edit - not that I'll pretend to know much about economics, but it just doesn't seem plausible]

I am not much of an economist either but comparing GDP between countries is ludicrous. Countries with 10x the population of little old NZ are bound to have a higher GDP. Wouldn't GDP PER CAPITA be a better comparison? Perhaps the economists here could shed some light?

[kingkarl 136]

yeah dead right.

Egypt's GDP is around $400,000,000,000 but because their population is so large, GDP per capita is around one sixth of NZ's. It's the same story for the other countries mentioned. Our GDP per capita is around 4-6 times greater than their's.

So in an economic sense it stands to reason that we are much further ahead than these countries.

[M325is 0]

Check out our Poll... WICKED!

[Guest Simon*]

I have a question regarding an election issue. Seeing as we have quite a few students here, who is suddenly swayed by Labour's last ditch "universal allowance" bribe? They used interest free loans last time to buy the student vote and here they go and do it again. It worked pretty successfully too last time it seems.

Personally, even if I was still a student I'd see it for the bullshit desperation it is.

Comments?