V8 Supercars

[Guest Ari Gold]

Too true.

I love the "technology" debate....

What "new" technology should they use?

OHC configurations have been around since 1902 from memory. [WW2 aircraft had fuel injection too on a side note.] Four valves per cylinder were on a production indian in 1908, not the first 4v head either. Independent suspension has been around for many, many years. So, none of the "technology" they "lack" is new really is it?

Pointless debate. All that "technology" and who can name the two highest hp per liter motors in the world? I'll give a hint, neither use the wonderful "new" yet 100+ year old technology.

I'm guessing you're angling toward stupidly large cid supercharged drag motors, a top fuel hemi is limited to a 500ci block (8194cc) and a 14/71 blower, but being impossible to actually measure their power, if its at the lower end of the scale - 7000hp it has an hp/l of 854hp/l, or at the high end of the scale - 8500hp, it has an hp/l of 1037hp/l. They're not designed to be run for longer than 10seconds at a time though.

The BMW 1500cc Turbo F1 engines over clocked their dyno's at 1300hp (qualifying power), so who knows how much power they actually made, but that's 867hp/l for a single hot lap.

[Driftit 1945]

LOL!!!!!!! Brilliant!!!!!

The "supercar" falcodores don't have any of the early 1900s tech - that is priceless!!!!!

I think you missed the point of his post.

Pretty sure he is saying that all this tech you think is newer. Is in fact around the same age.

[Apex 693]

You are aware that even with its prehistoric tech one would be twice as fast as a new ultra high tech road going BMW M3 or the like?

They are bloody fast, that should be testament to how well they can machine and design the cars even with restrictions.

I recommend you go to a race as I really don't think you comprehend how fast these cars are, they smell, sound and look awesome, any man who says they don't should hand in their man card.

Hell if all else fails there are the lush Jim Beam Girls and Lion Red Chair Team there to keep you entertained. See you all there

Edited March 15, 2010 by Apex

[c.robertson00 11]

You are aware that even with its prehistoric tech one would be twice as fast as a new ultra high tech road going BMW M3 or the like?

That doesnt make sence to compare a $500,000 race car to a $100,000 road car.... Spend the $400,000 difference on the M3 and see where you end up? The "Supercar" wouldnt see where the M3 went

[Forrest 35]

I recommend you go to a race as I really don't think you comprehend how fast these cars are, they smell, sound and look awesome, any man who says they don't should hand in their man card.

Totally agree with this.

As someone said before, like the Rugby 7's..you mostly go for the atmosphere.

Apex love your work as usual.

[dirtydoogle 383]

I'm guessing you're angling toward stupidly large cid supercharged drag motors, a top fuel hemi is limited to a 500ci block (8194cc) and a 14/71 blower, but being impossible to actually measure their power, if its at the lower end of the scale - 7000hp it has an hp/l of 854hp/l, or at the high end of the scale - 8500hp, it has an hp/l of 1037hp/l. They're not designed to be run for longer than 10seconds at a time though.

The BMW 1500cc Turbo F1 engines over clocked their dyno's at 1300hp (qualifying power), so who knows how much power they actually made, but that's 867hp/l for a single hot lap.

The top fuel are the second most powerful per liter using only a 2v configuration. The most powerful per liter happens to be a 3.5cc two stroke deisel a Rossi 236r21

A top fuel motor is under so much stress it is not possible to run it for that long, the engine components are too heavy. The crank shaft twists up to 20 degrees....

List of the top 5:

Model car 2 stroke diesel - Rossi 236R21 3.5cc, 3.45hp, 42,600rpm, 1.0145cc/hp

Top fuel dragster V8 supercharged 8194cc, 8000+hp, 8 200rpm, 1.0243cc/hp

F1 racing car 1987 turbo - qualifying 1494cc, 1400+hp, 14 000rpm, 1.0671cc/hp

F1 racing car 1987 turbo - race trim - Honda 1494cc 1000hp, 13 000rpm, 1.4940cc/hp

Honda TT race bike 5cyl [RC163 of 1963] 125cc, 47hp, -----rpm [possibly 24krpm but this is unconfirmed sorry] 2.6596cc/hp

I think you missed the point of his post.

Pretty sure he is saying that all this tech you think is newer. Is in fact around the same age.

Yes, that was the point. Nothing about poppet spring valve actuation or even desmodromic [ducati, pioneered by mercedes in the 30's] is new. Solinoid actuation is reasonably new though.

[rxsumo 33]

Just got back from a weekend in Adelaide.

Great event, good result from the Fords...even if they didnt get the number one position, and the T8 Holdens have been knocked off their perch.

There were heaps of support races....the most I've seen at a Supercar event....the main game, Fujitsu's, UTes, Biante Touring Cars, Aussie racing cars, Aussie GTs (cool field ...Lambos, Porsches,Moslers Vipers and more) Minis and a Sports Cars field.

They had a article in the Aussie Motorsport mag, about the changes to allow other manufacturers in, it was talking about using a "control" multicam V8 for anybody new coming in. Given that with the changes introduced this year along with the introduction of more standard chassis and driveline components....other bodies would be fairly easy to introduce....similar to NASCAR.

As this is an Aussie focused series, I would have thought that the most obvious other contenders would be Toyota Aurion or the Mitsubishi 380/Diamante....cars that are in the Falcon or Commodore market segment, I wouldnt see a place for cars of "foreign" manufacture like Merc or BMW.

[dirtydoogle 383]

So, a V8 FamilyCar will do a lap around Pukekohe in half the time of a road going M3? Wow. I did not know that.

That would be around 33 seconds wouldn't it? I don't even think my 320i will do that and it has more valves than a V8 super car.

[Driftit 1945]

So, a V8 FamilyCar will do a lap around Pukekohe in half the time of a road going M3? Wow. I did not know that.

Stop Trolling. Your Bimmersport Man Card has been revoked for hating on Motorsport.

Edited March 15, 2010 by driftit

[Braeden320 0]

This thread is painfull

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

This thread is painfull

Dont read it then.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Golfboy666GTI

[bravo 34]

Great debate.

Make sure it stays that way.

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

It went from involving everyone who is into cars (Nissans, Volvo, BMW, Holden, Ford, Toyota, Mazda...) to a series where only people who like Aussie V8s can participate. I understand that they just changed the class, but to the average joe - they banned teams other than the falcodores.

Ford hadnt raced Falcons in the ATCC since 1984 (the end of Group C). Infact Ford never raced Falcons in Group A rules. So to say "they banned teams other than the falcodores" is incorrect.

I love/loved Group A racing, but 20 years on we are all looking at Group A with rose tinted glasses. I wish and hope the V8 Supercars get more manufacturers into the game, its going to be tough though with the likes of Project Blueprint which controls the parity.

The rules of Project Blueprint have the Fords and Holdens running 5.0 V8's, the have the same tyres, the same brakes, the same suspension the same diff, the same gearbox, the same length. Both the BF Falcon and the VE Commodore have had a few centermeters across the center of the car removed. This happened because both cars are longer than what Project Blueprint rules are which were based on earlier model sizing. They have set points in the car where mesurements are taken from and have to be the same between the Commodore and Falcon (suspension ect).

What is coming out shortly though is a new formula thats mean to keep costs down, this is called "car of the future". Details havent been release on it yet but they will be shortly (this year).

It will be interesting to see what the forumla would be, Im guessing that the will be wanting to stay with a V8 engine.

If I was in charge this is what I would do. These would be my rules.

- N/A 6 cylinder (just think of the large mix of cars you could have)

- Max CC rating of either 3,000cc, 3,500cc or 4,000cc (I dont know which)

- 2 wheel drive, either FWD or RWD

- Must have 4 doors

- Production of 10,000 cars

- Engine and displacement of the standard car

- No sheet metal or aerodynamic aids can vary from the factory model

[Guest Simon*]

^^That would be cool Nik - I like that set of rules

Homologation of 10,000 cars might be an issue. Let's face it, apart from outward appearances how much similarity between a "V8 Supercar" and it's current Fold or Holden derivative base model?

[zenetti 0]

AVESCO have scheduled a press meeting for the Monday after the Australian GP to release the "car of the future" details. I am neither a Ford or Holden fan but you have to appreciate the quality and calibre of the racing this year, which has been excellent. Th safety car has only been out twice in 6 races (almost 1500km of racing). Once for a crash and once because the track started to break up.

Bring on Hamilton I say!! Free tickets fro me once again

Edited March 16, 2010 by zenetti

[Apex 693]

About 10%. Went into pits last year, the car is 10cm shorter than a road car, there is no floor and the driver is sitting 20cm offset towards center of the car. They are Epic awesome cars and the pits is like a fricken spaceship with all the race equipment and 30 odd computers being feed hundreds of channels of information from the car! Im getting excited now.

So, a V8 FamilyCar will do a lap around Pukekohe in half the time of a road going M3? Wow. I did not know that.

Yea that was an exaggeration to prove a point that even with all the technology in the latest BMW the old school Supercar will still pawn it harder than a BMW fanboy pwns his pants when he sees a M3.

At the GP last year they had a good comparison of speed, first a race prepped 135i with all the BMW Performance parts fitted, roll cage, race seats, 35 seconds later the V8 Supercar went out and then 35 seconds later the F1 car went out, was really interesting as the all finished at the furnish line about the same time.

Here is an edited video.

There are lots of BMW’s I the support races at the Hamilton race, if it want for the V8’s they wouldn’t have the opportunity to race there. It’s the best event to come to NZ IMHO, the closest we get to an awesome event like the GP in Melbourne.

[dirtydoogle 383]

^^That would be cool Nik - I like that set of rules

Homologation of 10,000 cars might be an issue. Let's face it, apart from outward appearances how much similarity between a "V8 Supercar" and it's current Fold or Holden derivative base model?

I expect the door handle trim would be the same?

I wish we could have a production class battle with the 10,000 cra production rule. Walkinshaw VE2 vs r35 skyline? Could be interesting, 480kw vs 485hp....100kg difference in weight.

A race where manufacturers display proof of how good their production car is. Like the 1930's

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2914]

The whole issue revolves around one word - Parity. Rules and regs are written to have two makes of car that are very, very close in terms of performance, speed, power, handling, etc. and to a lesser extent recently to control the costs of development and life-span of the parts. Start throwing in other manufacturers and cars and the whole thing gets a whole lot more difficult to keep in line.

As has been previously stated - who wants to see one make of car dominate the rest of the field, I don't. I want to see racing - cars through the field fighting for position, passing and battling each other. That's what motorsport is for me - not a technological arms race to see who has the best boffins.

Has anyone watched a WTCC race recently? Only three car types of note, the BMW, Seat Diesels and the Chryslers. WRC anyone - Ford and erm? Not even Subaru, Works Citroens or Mitsi Evos now. Part of this is the world financial climate - not too many $$$$s to throw at racing when the whole company is in the sh!t and part is the astronomic costs of being competitive in these formulas.

One thing is for sure, the V8 Supercars will have to evolve to survive, money is tight there as well, and it may be that other makes need to be included. As long as the racing is close, the winner can be anyone of 6+ car / driver combinations in any given race I will continue to watch avidly.

[richard 384]

A race where manufacturers display proof of how good their production car is. Like the 1930's

Which comes first , manufacturers designing new products for their cars and testing them on the race track or useing the data from the teams to design better car inside the rules that seem tobe getting very restrictive.

Bit like the chicken and the egg . which one comes first .

I would like to see more manufacturers in the series , like the good old days of Bathurst .

Its to stagnant at the moment there no room to think outside the box .

"Falcodoor" thats a good one , they do all look the same.

[zenetti 0]

The Falcon or the Commdore will never be stopped. Sales are far too strong in OZ for that. They will simply move to one of Ford or GM's global platforms.

My guess is Ford will move the Falcon to the new Mustang platform (still RWD) and that will also allow them to sell it in the US under another name. Probably the same with GM.

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

From the mouth of Tony Cochrane at Clipsal:

http://www.youtube.com/user/V8TVNews#p/a/u/2/ICXYUhBFfp4

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

Anyone seen the Italian Super Stars (V8) race series?

http://www.superstars.it/

Would be cool if V8 Supercars were looking to have rules simular to that series.

[Guest Simon*]

That looks cool Nik!

M5's, Maseratis, Jags, Mercs and even the Chevy badged VE Commy

[Apex 693]

No but dam you that’s cool, Wish Sky TV would play this instead of that gay WTTC sh*t.

Look who is up front

[Guest Simon*]

Ha! Depends which race you're looking at