LPG & SUVs

[gjm 3258]

Gas bbqing is so 2006.... Charcoal's where its at

I've missed charcoal BBQs ever since we got here! Gas barbies are kinda like moving your kitchen outside, and then having yer Missus tell you what you're doing wrong...

Isn't the point of having a horse to get from A to B?... Or is it supply for your new adhesive plant?

You're a bad person. I'm telling my daughter.

Lol.

But for those who have suggested it - the idea of borrowing a float when needed had occurred to me. I'm trying to take a more 'proactive' approach by not getting a horse in the first place!

[coop 261]

a falcon does 7.1 l per 100 ks?

edit sorry 7.6

I've had three 4.0. Yes the AU would consistently get 7.6 on a trip, could squeeze 850km out of a tank. As i said i put around 80k on it so I have a fair idea. BA not so great 8.2 was all it was good for. FG XR6 again 7.6 but I've had it down to 7.2 Te Rapa - akld return. No such luck with my V8.

3 pedals I had to laugh at that BBQ statement but obviously no real world experience from you just a few myths so why bother commenting...

OP I have a lifestyle block out of Cambridge. Am thinking of buying a cheap V8 Discovery as a hack. Can pick up an ok one for 3 grand. This will be luck to see over 5,000km a year so fuel economy won't be a killer. There aren't that many long unsealed roads around the Akld/Waikato area these days so your 320d should do the job(?).

[gjm 3258]

I've had three 4.0. Yes the AU would consistently get 7.6 on a trip, could squeeze 850km out of a tank. As i said i put around 80k on it so I have a fair idea. BA not so great 8.2 was all it was good for. FG XR6 again 7.6 but I've had it down to 7.2 Te Rapa - akld return. No such luck with my V8.

Kinda liked the idea of a Fairmont EB2, but I guess the 5.0 V8 isn't going to be quite so economical?

OP I have a lifestyle block out of Cambridge. Am thinking of buying a cheap V8 Discovery as a hack. Can pick up an ok one for 3 grand. This will be luck to see over 5,000km a year so fuel economy won't be a killer. There aren't that many long unsealed roads around the Akld/Waikato area these days so your 320d should do the job(?).

I'm unsure where the conception came from that LRs and RRs are so expensive to maintain, or so unreliable. 20 years living and working with, and on, them in the UK suggests otherwise, but they are 12000 miles from home over here. Maybe they're pining for the muddy lanes of Blighty?

We've found several properties that we really like, and all are on unsealed roads. In one case, calling the road unsealed is a kindness... To be fair, it's probably as much a reflection on where we're looking as anything else.

We did take the 320d over one such road: Klondyke Road, Onewhero - Port Waikato. Didn't realise it was quite like that... Mrs M assures me we won't do that again in anything less than a 'proper' 4x4! It wasn't really a problem, but there are certainly better vehicles for that trip.

[kiwi535 538]

I've had three 4.0. Yes the AU would consistently get 7.6 on a trip, could squeeze 850km out of a tank. As i said i put around 80k on it so I have a fair idea. BA not so great 8.2 was all it was good for. FG XR6 again 7.6 but I've had it down to 7.2 Te Rapa - akld return. No such luck with my V8.

3 pedals I had to laugh at that BBQ statement but obviously no real world experience from you just a few myths so why bother commenting...

OP I have a lifestyle block out of Cambridge. Am thinking of buying a cheap V8 Discovery as a hack. Can pick up an ok one for 3 grand. This will be luck to see over 5,000km a year so fuel economy won't be a killer. There aren't that many long unsealed roads around the Akld/Waikato area these days so your 320d should do the job(?).

wel that makes the e34 535 is look even worse than i thought it was

Edited October 1, 2014 by kiwi535

[huff3r 347]

I've had three 4.0. Yes the AU would consistently get 7.6 on a trip, could squeeze 850km out of a tank. As i said i put around 80k on it so I have a fair idea. BA not so great 8.2 was all it was good for. FG XR6 again 7.6 but I've had it down to 7.2 Te Rapa - akld return. No such luck with my V8.

3 pedals I had to laugh at that BBQ statement but obviously no real world experience from you just a few myths so why bother commenting...

OP I have a lifestyle block out of Cambridge. Am thinking of buying a cheap V8 Discovery as a hack. Can pick up an ok one for 3 grand. This will be luck to see over 5,000km a year so fuel economy won't be a killer. There aren't that many long unsealed roads around the Akld/Waikato area these days so your 320d should do the job(?).

I can back this up, my manual au xr6 is fantastic on long trips. Definitely under 8 when I don't thrash it. That's not driving like a nana either though.

[lord_jagganath 421]

what's the difference beteen the 3.5 m20 and the aussie 4.0 6? there must be some technological differences for it to have such a huge difference in fuel consumption.

[deeveus 81]

Maybe I've missed it but has it been said anywhere where how much you are spending? If you're spending 10k then you'd be best with a Prado diesel or Surf diesel. I seriously wouldn't consider a Territory, they're rubbish, we've had one and it was thirstier than the groom on a stags night.

If you are going 20-30k I'd go diesel X5. My ones towed brilliantly, and the best tow vehicle is with the most torque, not all the power at the top end like a petrol.

The more torque the better IMO.

[gjm 3258]

Maybe I've missed it but has it been said anywhere where how much you are spending? If you're spending 10k then you'd be best with a Prado diesel or Surf diesel. I seriously wouldn't consider a Territory, they're rubbish, we've had one and it was thirstier than the groom on a stags night.

If you are going 20-30k I'd go diesel X5. My ones towed brilliantly, and the best tow vehicle is with the most torque, not all the power at the top end like a petrol.

The more torque the better IMO.

You've not missed it - it's perhaps an oversight on my part.

This started as a comparison of the relative fuel-related costs for a vehicle using LPG and other fuels. However, I've realised that unless I can spend fairly big and get something with a full multi-point LPG system which uses some method to amend the EMS and alter timing accordingly, then it is probably either a waste of time, or potentially more trouble than it's worth.

Fortunately it's not imperative we do something now, but this has (for me) been very useful in focusing my thoughts. Thanks to everyone for that! It'll also be invaluable when the time does come to acquire something a little bigger.

[deeveus 81]

You've not missed it - it's perhaps an oversight on my part.

This started as a comparison of the relative fuel-related costs for a vehicle using LPG and other fuels. However, I've realised that unless I can spend fairly big and get something with a full multi-point LPG system which uses some method to amend the EMS and alter timing accordingly, then it is probably either a waste of time, or potentially more trouble than it's worth.

Fortunately it's not imperative we do something now, but this has (for me) been very useful in focusing my thoughts. Thanks to everyone for that! It'll also be invaluable when the time does come to acquire something a little bigger.

Just to create a bit of a comparison, I have a 320d remapped similar to yours and a few years back I had a S Commodore V8 ute. Hands down the 320d towed better, even though it had 4 less cyclinders, and 3.0 liters less engine capacity. All the power on a n/a petrol is at the top end.

[deeveus 81]

Plus I think you'll find a that there's only a limited amount of vendors about for LPG and I think CNG is gone burgers.

[coop 261]

3pedals you're correct about the loss of torque in LPG conversion which is why if I towed something between 1-2 tonne I'd use petrol. If the OP is occasionally towing this shouldn't be an issue. It didn't effect every day driving to be noticeable.

However Ford Au have developed a liquid injection set up which, apart from consumption, shows up the petrol 4.0 in power and torque. So with enough development behind it, it is not 30 years out of date as you put it. A quick look and owners of these in Oz are getting sub 10 l/100km highway so if you're paying 1.26-1.30/litre thats good economy. From memory there is talk of it becoming more popular in the UK as the enviro nazis are putting the squeeze on diesels as LPG is a lot cleaner. Your assumption of LPG is as outdated as likening modern turbo diesels to an old Perkins powered TK Bedford.

The diesel guy - put the same gear ratios of that commodore behind the 2.0td and you'd have to drive it everywhere in 1st gear

[coop 261]

who's stuck in the dark ages , towing 1500kg with a petrol really - get a modern turbo diesel and you will NEVER tow with a gas guzzling petrol ever again if you are even half honest with yourself.

The only reasons Ford Australia sort of developed the kit was to prolong the life of the dinosaur engines they develop, the liquid injection makes more power because of exactly what you said, it DRINKS like a fish. and because they got money from the gas companies and the government.

Both Australia and the UK have large gas fields and both are offering subsidies for people to convert , why ? - Because it doesn't stack up otherwise.

Your'e flogging dead horse those who got burnt in the 80's are not flocking back to be burnt again ask your self why.

As pointed out earlier (by someone else) , dribbling around in an already converted old shitter is more economical - but who wants to do that?

You're going off track here, did you not see the OP has '000s' to spend, not '0000s', tell me what decent turbo diesel that can do what you describe will be had for under 10 grand. They will all be gutless slugs that wont be efficient, but will be getting long in the tooth. Hence why a Commodore or Falcon already converted to LPG will be a better financial option... I've already given rough figures showing my old Falcon on gas is cheaper per km than my 320d... before servicing is taken into account too. OP could take a gamble on a 4.0 Disco or other full size petrol SUV of the era but geez they like to drink and dont have much go to show for it. OP could also take a gamble on an older tech, gutless, over priced diesel around that prce range but there wont be much $$$ left over for any repairs if anything happens.

How much towing have you done with petrol... My 400hp ute will do SH1 up/down the North Island with 1700kg including trailer behind it and 3-400kg in the tray at just over 17l/100km holding 100k up evey hill. I wouldn't do this every day, but every one to two months wont break the bank, which is why if mileage isn't excessive, petrol is better buying once the higher purchase price of diesel vehicles, rego, R&M, RUCs is taken into account - and no I'm not biased, I'm a diesel mech btw.

We have several Land Cruisers and work. Three of the old 4.2td 6 cylinders, two new 4.5 td V8, and they are thirstier than my V8 ute. No way would I want to fuel these things AND pay ruc. Cruise at 110kmh and they wont better 15l/100km, try and hold 120-130 and they're up into the 20s. Use more gas than our 6 tonne service truck! Tools on board no trailer. So to paint diesels as a be all and end all is misleading, maybe if your budget is over 20 grand.

BTW, LPG was for the taxi market, Govt and private sector fleets who have feel good greenie policies that restrict their buying to 'clean' cars - Hybrid, 4 cylinders and LPG. Bugger all new car private sales with LPG. Whether it is subsidised or not is beside the point, it is currently cheaper to run than the petrol equalivant.

Before you get on your high horse about efficiency, consider that pretty much every engine driving on the road has an efficiency rating of less than 40%, lol.

Edited October 5, 2014 by coop

[gjm 3258]

Unfortunately I'm in the same position as so many others - I guess the vehicle we want is just more expensive (at present) than we can afford. It needs to be multi-functional and while suitable for loading bales of hay in the back, should be presentable enough for Mrs gjm to collect folk (and family) from the airport.

The query re LPG came about from a discussion on a Australian forum: don't buy a noisy and smelly diesel - get a V8! If you want lower running costs, get a V8 converted to run on LPG.

Well, that's the gist of it, anyway. Over here, with RUC charges, a less-than-economical diesel just doesn't make sense, so I thought I'd ask if anyone has any comparative experience )in terms of running costs) of diesel and LPG. It's inspired some lively debate, that's for sure.

Ultimately, it may just make sense to buy something already converted if it can be bought at an appropriate price. That's the issue with these conversions (for the private individual paying for them) - they aren't cheap to do, and they don't add value at sale time.

I wasn't aware of the work that had been done by Australian car companies in developing factory-fitted LPG conversions. Some half-hearted effort had been made in Europe, but typically it was a nod towards doing something for fleet users and the like, and used an 'economic', and often less than efficient, solution.

Most diesel SUVs of the size we've been considering won't do much better than 30mpg, or 10(ish) km per litre. There's plenty of petrol options that will approach that and potentially present more economic ownership. The petrol engines probably won't have the same low-down torque but may be better to drive on a highway at 90-100km/h.

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed. It has, for me, been very useful in highlighting benefits and options, and also some of my misconceptions.

[Olaf 3339]

at least this ad will give you a laff: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/toyota/auction-784189558.htm

and its 4x4 with lpg!

[gjm 3258]

at least this ad will give you a laff: http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/toyota/auction-784189558.htm

and its 4x4 with lpg!

Yup.

I'm not sure the seller is man enough to stand up to Mrs gjm, though... (I don't stand up to her - I get out of the way!)

[Olaf 3339]

yeah it was interesting in that it was all ad-speak, and completely devoid of any info on the state of the vehicle! nice copy though, sell hard.

[Allanw 1072]

It does depend on the exact cars you compare, of course, and not all diesels are the same.

Back in the 90's (fuel was cheaper obviously!) Dad had a 3.0 V6 manual Toyota Surf/4-runner. I remember a trip to Auckland, where we spent 32 on petrol... and a fiend of dads spent $27 dollars of diesel in his 2.4 turbo diesel surf (he still had to pay RUCs) I was driving (and was a teenager) and I can remember pulling out to pass a pile of cars up pohuehue viaduct, he pulled out too, but when we got to the end of windy ridge, the line of cars (who didn't pass) was just coming around the corner at the other end... and he was still trapped in it Those were sh*t, and they haven't improved much at all since.

I also had a mate who brought a truck likes dads, but a V6 auto - it was HUNGRY and SLOW.

an X5 will perform better than a lot of Jap trucks, and probably with the same economy.

You really have to look at each model/type etc based on it's own merits. Just buying any old diesel 4WD is asking for trouble! sometimes there may be a petrol version that IS more economical.

So it all comes down to budget, If you can spring for a decent diesel it will pay back over time and distance after 5 years I am at least $25 grand up on where I would have been if I bought a V8 X5 - half way to the M3 V8

That can be a bit misleading for some though - clearly you must do immense milage, because saving $5000 a year is quite tricky... My wife and I in the 525i and my old VW van only spent $3201.07 last year, combined.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

So,

whats the cliff notes on LPG SUVs in one paragraph

looking at picking one up at the moment.

[gjm 3258]

So,

whats the cliff notes on LPG SUVs in one paragraph

looking at picking one up at the moment.

SUVs with big thirsty engines use lots of petrol, and cost lots to run.

LPG doesn't change the thirst, but may make the cost more acceptable. Correctly installed in an engine optimised for LPG, there may be some loss of performance or economy, but these installations are newer and the purchase price (of the conversion, or a converted vehicle) is much higher. Older vehicles with older-style LPG implementations are thirstier than the petrol version they are based on, and offer less performance. Of course, if you have several hundred hp, losing 60-80hp may be less relevant than the savings in fuel costs. (I don't know what effect using LPG has on torque output.)

Arbitrarily, a diesel SUV could return 10 litres per 100km. A LPG SUV will use around 16 litres per 100km. $1.10 per litre for LPG, $1.50 for diesel... Include RUCs and based on these figures, the LPG vehicle is cheaper to run: the LPG vehicle could almost use 20 litres per 100km before becoming the more expensive option.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

SUVs with big thirsty engines use lots of petrol, and cost lots to run.

LPG doesn't change the thirst, but may make the cost more acceptable. Correctly installed in an engine optimised for LPG, there may be some loss of performance or economy, but these installations are newer and the purchase price (of the conversion, or a converted vehicle) is much higher. Older vehicles with older-style LPG implementations are thirstier than the petrol version they are based on, and offer less performance. Of course, if you have several hundred hp, losing 60-80hp may be less relevant than the savings in fuel costs. (I don't know what effect using LPG has on torque output.)

Arbitrarily, a diesel SUV could return 10 litres per 100km. A LPG SUV will use around 16 litres per 100km. $1.10 per litre for LPG, $1.50 for diesel... Include RUCs and based on these figures, the LPG vehicle is cheaper to run: the LPG vehicle could almost use 20 litres per 100km before becoming the more expensive option.

Exactly what I thought, thanks very much, would be used on LPG most of the time, and Petrol when towing.

[huff3r 347]

it doesn't, I run a v8 because the mileage I do a year means it is cheaper than a diesel due to the savings in rego. Of course that's because I do very little mileage, but still it means that the difference in cost is not proportional, as you have to factor the rego difference in too, which is a fixed cost.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

how are you getting road rego for $30-45, a diesel SUV is more than $400 for anyone else, and thats before you do a single KM a year

In other words, extra rego cost alone is a trip to Auckland and back in a Petrol before I even leave my driveway in a diesel

Edited October 10, 2014 by _Ethrty-Andy_

[kiwi535 538]

Whats rego for petrol now,250?

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2136]

By managing it within the legal frame work, Bike is the same full year registration is $528 I pay about $280

Rego is set to come down based on vehicle safety rating which is a good thing,

so its on Farm Rego?

Not much use to anyone that doesn't live on a farm and therefore irrelevant?

[Olaf 3339]

phew, for a mo there I thought it might have been an ambulance!