LPG & SUVs

[gjm 3194]

I'm sure LPG must have been discussed on here at some point, but a search didn't turn up any results.

We've seen discussions around the merits (or otherwise) of diesel and petrol, and how it's not quite as straightforward as diesel is cheaper, many diesel cars are more economical, but there are RUCs to be paid and rego costs more.

Curiously, looking at RUC costs, NZTA refer to vehicles as having petrol or non-petrol engines. Non-petrol engines attract a higher charge for rego.

It turns out we may be moving house, to somewhere quite rural. Certainly we're spending more time visiting folk who live in places where sealed road surfaces are less common, and there's been far too many occasions when the underbody guard has rubbed something.

I thought about a small SUV before, but as many pointed out - they tend to be less economical than a 'normal' car, less nice to drive, and potentially less safe in an accident. They'll also often not tow much more than a car, and that could become relevant.

So, a 'proper' SUV. Something Land Rover Discovery, Range Rover or similar size. The diesel versions (of an age and at a price we'd consider at present) tend to be a little lack-lustre. Talking to some folk in Europe they suggested looking at LPG conversions.

And so the fun starts. If a vehicle can run on petrol or LPG, does it fall into the petrol-engined rego class?

Has anyone done a similar check to find the relative economies of running on LPG and petrol?

[Olaf 3248]

petrol with an LPG conversion - which is still petrol - and in most cases still runs on petrol as well, should run same taxation.

Land Cruiser or Prado and be done with it. Petrol versions cheaper, ripe for LPG conversion. Get a Rockgas card, discounted LPG. Bone up on where LPG is sold in your area, though.

Perhaps a Commodore Wagon? You probably don't a four wheel drive, just something that manages country roads and can tow.

[westy 614]

Does the Terratory come factory fitted with LPG like the Falcon?

[coop 261]

Territory doesn't come factory fitted.

You'd be best off buying one already converted. I don't think it's worth while to pay for conversion these days.

LPG has same rego as petrol.

I've had two dual fuel Falcons. One AU 4.0 with the old mixer set up, similar to a carby. On highway I'd get 7.6-7.8l/100km running 91, and 10.5 on LPG.

Second 5.4 V8 Falcon that ran the more modern LPG vapour injection. This would return 9.5 on 91 and 11.5 on LPG over the same roads as that AU.

Bear in mind LPG is about 90 cents to one dollar cheaper per lite than 91. Shop around cos price varies. BP are always the most expensive. Las time I checked rockgas card had it at about $1/litre.

Do the sums on what ever you're looking at.

[gjm 3194]

Ta.

Definitely would be looking at an already converted vehicle, and one running a multipoint set up. There's a few Ford Explorers around that have been converted, but the older ones are almost exclusively singlepoint (mixer) type conversions, and can be problematic.

Early days. Not in a rush, and tbh can't justify (practically or financially) doing anything immediately.

Manufacturer (such as Ford, etc) fitted kits carry a bit of a question mark. Typically they aren't as good as the aftermarket professionally-fitted setups, but the price difference may negate that.

[elmarco 56]

Manufacturer (such as Ford, etc) fitted kits carry a bit of a question mark. Typically they aren't as good as the aftermarket professionally-fitted setups, but the price difference may negate that.

Huh? I would expect the exact opposite - particularly the later liquid injection systems that Ford used.

[antil33t 90]

Just buy a decent diesel and stop listening to all the myths about diesels not being cheaper - just don't get sucked into one of the stupid over hair dryered 2 litre Korean shitters.

I drive one of those, it's not that bad. It's actually got a pretty damn small turbo.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2122]

I was teasing about the size of the hair dryer - It's the ugly front wheel drive biased sledging chassis behaviour and rubbish suspension , poorly matched engine and transmission characteristics, crap ergonomics and bad driving position that makes them so heinous.

Refuse too take them as rental cars any more- over getting a stiff neck after 20 minutes driving and being forced to sit behind roadslugs doing 70 k because to too dangerous to attempt a passing manoeuvre without 10km of 4 lanes of clear road ahead. ( slight exaggeration for entertainment value)

you clearly havent driven one produced since 1995.

Edited September 30, 2014 by _Ethrty-Andy_

[gjm 3194]

I was teasing about the size of the hair dryer - It's the ugly front wheel drive biased sledging chassis behaviour and rubbish suspension , poorly matched engine and transmission characteristics, crap ergonomics and bad driving position that makes them so heinous.

Refuse too take them as rental cars any more- over getting a stiff neck after 20 minutes driving and being forced to sit behind roadslugs doing 70 k because to too dangerous to attempt a passing manoeuvre without 10km of 4 lanes of clear road ahead. ( slight exaggeration for entertainment value)

Lol

Drove a Kia Sorrento hire car - once. Never again. Understeered for the world understeering championships, and that was at around 65km/h on a moderate constant-radius two-lane corner. I really wondered if we were going to make it.

Of course, that's a people carrier type vehicle, and not a 4x4 or even a soft-road SUV.

Exploring options and seeking experience at the moment. There's the usual contradictory info available on the 'net - buy a diesel because it is torquey and economical. (A Range Rover DSE has some appeal and a BMW engine - can't stretch to the TDV8.) Or buy a LPG-converted V8 something-or-other for the power. Reduction in economy is more than made up by lower fuel price.

LPG is fine when done properly. That means with proper engine management updates to account for the significantly different octane ratings of the fuels used. There was a race team in the UK who used LPG very successfully, but then fell foul of new engine mod rules designed to prohibit or restrict some types of petrol-engine tuning.

My comment about manufacturer-fitted LPG systems stemmed from a conversation with a service manager at a main Ford dealer. He said his sole consolation was that Ford were no worse (in this respect) than anyone else, and that it was a shame the car manufacturers didn't keep up with developments. I guess it's more difficult as a mass-manufacturer to make those sort of changes.

[kiwi535 538]

I'm sure LPG must have been discussed on here at some point, but a search didn't turn up any results.

We've seen discussions around the merits (or otherwise) of diesel and petrol, and how it's not quite as straightforward as diesel is cheaper, many diesel cars are more economical, but there are RUCs to be paid and rego costs more.

Curiously, looking at RUC costs, NZTA refer to vehicles as having petrol or non-petrol engines. Non-petrol engines attract a higher charge for rego.

It turns out we may be moving house, to somewhere quite rural. Certainly we're spending more time visiting folk who live in places where sealed road surfaces are less common, and there's been far too many occasions when the underbody guard has rubbed something.

I thought about a small SUV before, but as many pointed out - they tend to be less economical than a 'normal' car, less nice to drive, and potentially less safe in an accident. They'll also often not tow much more than a car, and that could become relevant.

So, a 'proper' SUV. Something Land Rover Discovery, Range Rover or similar size. The diesel versions (of an age and at a price we'd consider at present) tend to be a little lack-lustre. Talking to some folk in Europe they suggested looking at LPG conversions.

And so the fun starts. If a vehicle can run on petrol or LPG, does it fall into the petrol-engined rego class?

Has anyone done a similar check to find the relative economies of running on LPG and petrol?

unless you really really want 4wd and low range there is no need for a prado,pajero,landcruiser,range rover,landrover.Try some soft roaders. xtrail,rav4 4,.Dont overlook a suzuki vitara.Drive many.All the proper 4wd petrol ones will make your eyes water for running costs,but some can be had quite cheaply because of this

[gjm 3194]

unless you really really want 4wd and low range there is no need for a prado,pajero,landcruiser,range rover,landrover.Try some soft roaders. xtrail,rav4 4,.Dont overlook a suzuki vitara.Drive many.All the proper 4wd petrol ones will make your eyes water for running costs,but some can be had quite cheaply because of this

It's a balancing act.

In the UK, my daily driver was a late 80s Mercedes 300SE. The likely difference between it's sale value, and the purchase price of a newer more economical car (which would depreciate), paid for a huge amount of petrol!

I quite like the older X-Trail. Heard some very scarey things about the diesel engine fitted in them, though. Maybe unfortunately I grew up around Land Rovers and their posh cousins, and have some very fond memories.

[Olaf 3248]

If you're just driving on unsealed roads (rather than off-road) and your towing needs don't include muddy paddocks, the commodore wagon is all you need and will return surprisingly good fuel economy on trips. It handles better on-road and on unsealed roads than most of the SUVs/4WDs, is cheaper and simpler to service (made by Australians for Australians), and engineered for harsh conditions like thousands of kilometers of unsealed roads without speedlimits, or even taxi use in Sydney/police duty in Auckland or Brisbane..

If you must have 4x4 get a proper one, life starts at Suzuki for lightweight (Vitara or Jimmy), the Toyota (Surf/HiLux/Prado/Cruiser), or Nissan (Navara/Terrano/Pathfinder/Patrol), Mitsubishi (Pajero/Challenger). 'Good' is of course a relative thing, Land Rover product devalues quickly because they break and are heinously expensive to fix.

You can add LPG to the commodore if you really want, though with round-town at 10 or 11l/100kms, and trips returning 8l/100km, do you really need to be figuring out conversion payback figures? None of the soft-roaders are engineered to be truly durable (eg 350,000kms plus service life) like your e46 diesel, so anything less than a commodore or 'proper' 4x4 is likely to dissappoint.

What are you likely to be towing, BTW?

cheers

[antil33t 90]

I was teasing about the size of the hair dryer - It's the ugly front wheel drive biased sledging chassis behaviour and rubbish suspension , poorly matched engine and transmission characteristics, crap ergonomics and bad driving position that makes them so heinous.

Refuse too take them as rental cars any more- over getting a stiff neck after 20 minutes driving and being forced to sit behind roadslugs doing 70 k because to too dangerous to attempt a passing manoeuvre without 10km of 4 lanes of clear road ahead. ( slight exaggeration for entertainment value)

oh, I have an Aycton Sport, I wouldn't buy one myself but at least it's got manual gears, RWD and low-range

Ergonomics aren't bad except for the head rests aren't tillable, plenty of torque to sit in 6th and pass in 6th at least.

Can't say much for Korean cars though.

[westy 614]

is cheaper and simpler to service (made by Australians for Australians),

I see what you did there.

Also, nothing says 'I give up' like a f**king soft roader.

[gjm 3194]

Towing duties will be varied. Lifestyle block type stuff, or car trailer. Something smaller won't worry about those, but Miss and Mrs M seem to have their sights set on a horse.

Of course, owning a horse doesn't mean a float is needed, just simpler. Frankly that sounds like an expense we just don't need at the moment. (Or ever!)

I've held off looking closely at Holdens and Fords. Perhaps it is now time.

[kiwi535 538]

Towing duties will be varied. Lifestyle block type stuff, or car trailer. Something smaller won't worry about those, but Miss and Mrs M seem to have their sights set on a horse.

 

Of course, owning a horse doesn't mean a float is needed, just simpler. Frankly that sounds like an expense we just don't need at the moment. (Or ever!)

 

I've held off looking closely at Holdens and Fords. Perhaps it is now time.

E34 or e 39 or touring or even a 7 series,std height

[huff3r 347]

If you are even considering towing a horsefloat then you want a proper 4wd. Something decently heavy. While a falcon or softroader may handle towing the weight, the handling will be compromised and it just doesn't feel safe at all. Especially because horses, unlike most loads, can and sometimes do move. Like swing their weight around, rocking the float.

Our Range Rover Classic handles it perfectly fine though, it feels solid and safe under load, if a little underpowered but hey it's an 87 3.5l v8.

[kiwi535 538]

Towing duties will be varied. Lifestyle block type stuff, or car trailer. Something smaller won't worry about those, but Miss and Mrs M seem to have their sights set on a horse.

 

Of course, owning a horse doesn't mean a float is needed, just simpler. Frankly that sounds like an expense we just don't need at the moment. (Or ever!)

 

I've held off looking closely at Holdens and Fords. Perhaps it is now time.

Dont do it mate do an e 34 or e39. Touring just a std height one,unless you doing the horse thing.

If you go that way maybe a twin cab ute

[coop 261]

f**king around with LPG is about as smart as converting fuel use to MPG ----------- its about 30 years out of date .

Post 2000 TD5 Landrovers are okay if you really want a Landy .

And your first hand experience with LPG is...

As per my first reply, my old dual fuel Falcon running the inefficient mixer set up, a run up the North Island on 91 is 7.6l/100km at 2.19/l, so 650km Wgtn CBD to North Shore =$108. Running LPG 10.5l/100km at 1.26/l = $86. So not a bad saving in one trip, or about as cheap as some small gutless cramped 1.6l shitbox. The gap would be even bigger using a rockgas card. In comparison my 320d is about $91 including RUC.

I'm no LPG nut, the old man bought the car for me when I left school and I racked up 80 odd thousand km in it before selling. So I can see the benefits, as long as someone else has footed the conversion bill. If converting you'd need to do a lot of km to break even, but the same thing goes with the price premium of diesel v petrol SUV.

It seems OP isn't too worried about towing or off road to consider the small soft roaders, so a Commodore on LPG would be the best choice, as it will do everything better than those horrible soft roaders.

If hell bent of an SUV, and one running LPG, in my opinion the best buy would be the WJ 4.7 Grand Cherokee. Cheap enough to buy, good power and easly one of the most capable 4wds out of the box. Your main problem is finding one already converted, but they are good for 11-12l/100km open road running petrol anyway so arent as bad as some assume. To buy a diesel with similar performance and off road ability you'd be looking at 25 grand plus.

Edited October 1, 2014 by coop

[lord_jagganath 421]

there's a 2005 200k kms ML320 going for $20k.....

[gjm 3194]

there's a 2005 200k kms ML320 going for $20k.....

We're in the $000s bracket, and sadly not the $0000s range! If I had that sort of money available there's an AMG C55 I'd quite like...

[gjm 3194]

Lost of experience with LPG- I run the barbeque and the cook top on it.

Lol

I have a potential plan, but I'm going to let the idea settle for a day or two.

Edited October 1, 2014 by gjm

[kiwi535 538]

a falcon does 7.1 l per 100 ks?

edit sorry 7.6

Edited October 1, 2014 by kiwi535

[Olaf 3248]

if it's horses, get thee a truck license and buy a four wheel horse float Mind you, if they're living at your lifestyle block you can borrow a trailer when you need to.

tough choice between the commode wagon and the e39 Touring.... 528 or 530.... I guess the diesels are rare as rockinghorse sh*t here, shame.

Nice quandry to be in, though!

Whoever suggested a mercedes ML, I missed the requirement "must be (exceptionally )troublesome and representative of the manufacturer's lesser-regarded output" I'll get me coat!

[elmarco 56]

Lost of experience with LPG- I run the barbeque and the cook top on it.

Gas bbqing is so 2006.... Charcoal's where its at

Towing duties will be varied. Lifestyle block type stuff, or car trailer. Something smaller won't worry about those, but Miss and Mrs M seem to have their sights set on a horse.

Of course, owning a horse doesn't mean a float is needed, just simpler. Frankly that sounds like an expense we just don't need at the moment. (Or ever!)

I've held off looking closely at Holdens and Fords. Perhaps it is now time.

Isn't the point of having a horse to get from A to B?... Or is it supply for your new adhesive plant?