E36 Clutch Problem

[wrs 120]

Recently I replaced my engine and gearbox.

The car is a 92 E36 325i Coupe which had the old engine and Jatco gearbox removed.

It was replaced with a M50B30 + S6S 420G Getrag six speed manual conversion. The kit I purchased included a dual mass flywheel and standard M3 clutch. I decided to by a NZAD BMW E36 M50 M52 S50 Solid flywheel & Clutch kit to get the lighter flywheel and all new parts. The flexi-line to the slave cylinder is braided.

My problem is the clutch doesn't disengage until the clutch pedal is about 10mm from the floor. It also ocassionally doesn'tt disengage fully leading to a bit of a crunch into the next gear. It does help a bit if I quickly tap the gas to rev match. The first 25mm of my pedal travel is very light then it goes stiff for the rest of the travel (pressing by hand you can feel the pedal spring first, then the hydraulic pressure).

Today I decided to try to find out what the problem is.

I've bled the brakes several time, at least twice each time using the pump the pedal - release the bleed valve method, press the rod on the slave cylinder method and the reverse flow method. For the later 2 methods the slave cylinder was removed and held vertical with the bleed valve toward the top or bottom depending on the bleed metohod (top for press the rob method and bottom for reverse flow method).

I got no bubbles and no change in the behaviour of the clutch.

I've checked the pedal pivots and everything is reasonably tight with very little slop.

So, since all the usual issues appear to be covered (have I missed any??) and started doing some measurements.

The slave cylinder rod appears to have approximately 45mm of available travel.

When I put the slave cylinder into the bell housing the rod engages into the release bearing fork with 29mm of the cylinder still sticking out. You then push on the cylinder to push the oil out and get the slave cylinder into position to put on the nuts.

This then means I have a maximum travel on the slave cylinder rod of 29mm of the 45mm possible.

Could this suggest the fork pivot pin is buggered?

Does anyone here know what the correct travel should be on the slave cylinder rod. I would have thought it would be around 35-36mm leaving 9-10mm spare for self adjustment to clutch wear.

If the pivot is ok then what's the solution - extend the rod?

I may have to get a fibre-optic inspection camera to check the fork pivot pin?

Any ideas?

[aja540i 1906]

You may want to also check that the release bearing is seated properly on the fork, it has 2 little tabs that stick out each side of the sleeve that the bearing is attached to, these should be in line with the 2 bumps on the front of the fork. If they are not in the right place the release bearing will not be pushing as far into the pressure plate as it should, and the clutch may not disengage. Good luck

[wrs 120]

Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it's correctly seated - can just see it using a flashlight and mirror looking through the slave cylinder hole. Is sitting in the notches.

Have been considering using a 325 slave cylinder instead of the M3. The smaller bore-size of the 325 slave means the rod will travel further for the same amount of pedal depression. This won't help if I'm right on the travel limit of the M3 slave already and may lead to the pin blowing out on a 325 slave.

I guess the real question is - is 29mm of engagement of the slave pin the correct amount or should there be more?

If there's supposed to be 35mm + of engagement when fitting the slave cylinder then the likely culprit is the fork pin.

The fork pin looked ok when everything was fitted to the car but the stage II clutch kit may apply more pressure to the pin than the original clutch did and being the original old and possibly brittle pin it may have collapsed. Looks like an inspection camera is required...

The distance from the mounting flange on the bell-housing for the slave cylinder to the dimple in the release bearing fork is 73.5mm. I'm not sure if this distance is correct - there's bugger-all dimensional info available to help diagnose clutch problems on BMW's!!!

Edited November 7, 2015 by wrs

[*Glenn* 855]

There is also 2 different release bearing carriers one is approx 10mm deeper than the other

[wrs 120]

Do you mean the metal release arm the release bearing clips onto?

If so, do you know which cars/engines used the different arm?

[wrs 120]

Today I purchased a USB camera on a flexi-lead to see if I could get in through the slave cylinder hole to see the realease arm pivot pin.

I got close but just couldn't see it (saw the spring clip a couple of times) and then the camera got stuck!!! Managed to get it out after about a minute of careful wiggling but decided that would do - don't it to get stuck and break off leaving loose bits in the bell housing.

So, I'm still none the wiser.

I want to find out what the problem is withough taking the gearbox out. It could be the pivot pin but I'd rather not take the box out to find it's actually ok.

Here's a picture of the geometry of the clutch - does anyone know if this is correct (or prepared to measure on their car)?

This picture shows the slave cylinder unbolted and sitting at the point where it takes pressure to push the slave rod into the cylinder.

Edited November 8, 2015 by wrs

[wrs 120]

At this stage I think I'll try a 325 slave to get slightly more travel on the pin.

M3 Slave = 22.20mm

325 Slave = 20.64mm

Area diff = 22.20²/20.64² = 1.1569

So there should be about 15.7% more extension on the 325i slave. If it moves about 20mm then that's an additional 3.13mm travel on the pin.

This might be enough...

[euroriffic 612]

Also have the same issue with my 328i touring. Am running a getrag 240 from a 318i with pivot arm, baring and Slave, m3 evo fly and clutch setup, and yea, had to take the clutch stop out so can push it hard to the floor to get it to disengage, but can still feel it's not completely.

[*Glenn* 855]

Do you mean the metal release arm the release bearing clips onto?

If so, do you know which cars/engines used the different arm?

This picture shows the different heights of the carriers..... the 2 on the right. You probably need the longer of the two. If you lengthen the pushrod the arm will start touching the pressure plate after a short period of time because the fork angles are wrong. If you push the clutch slave cylinder in and measure the protrusion of the push rod from the mounting face of the cylinder. This distance should be about 4-5mm greater from the mounting face of the bell housing and the ball socket in the clutch fork when the fork is gently pushed against the pressure plate fingers.

[BrentNZ 44]

On 11/9/2015 at 6:33 AM, *Glenn* said:

This picture shows the different heights of the carriers..... the 2 on the right. You probably need the longer of the two. If you lengthen the pushrod the arm will start touching the pressure plate after a short period of time because the fork angles are wrong. If you push the clutch slave cylinder in and measure the protrusion of the push rod from the mounting face of the cylinder. This distance should be about 4-5mm greater from the mounting face of the bell housing and the ball socket in the clutch fork when the fork is gently pushed against the pressure plate fingers.

Best place to get the longer throw out bearings from?

[*Glenn* 855]

From memory it was BNT. I think the longer carrier type was listed under E21 6cyl as apposed to the E30/E36 shorter type

[wrs 120]

I ended up pulling the D1 clutch kit out and selling it on TM. I kept in contact with the purchaser who fitted it up to a 5-speed box and had no trouble.

I suspect in my case there was an issue with the D1 pressure plate and thrust release distance being incompatible with the 6-speed S6S420G box. I got a standard M3 pressure plate and release bearing through Kayne Barry and it's been magic ever since (still using the standard M3 slave cylinder).

[BimmerShaun 10]

On a side note, how'd you get your m50b30 together? Did you build it yourself? I'm trying to build one myself but I'm finding m54b30s a tad hard to come by and slightly cost prohibitive. 

[wrs 120]

One of the guys at HellBM built it. They'd likely have little issue finding the required parts for their own use.

I purchased as a long block but it had already been running in one of the guys cars.

[Gaz 1062]

I've been running the setup, m52b28 with a 6 speed box and NZAD clutch and flywheel. Didn't install the clutch stop but do feel the engagement point is very low. I feel it has become better and higher since installing it so might install the stop if i can find it. Probably done about 2000km so far

[Funkyflynz 151]

im having the same problem with my NZAD kit (for my e36 m52b28)  The zf box im using previously had what i beleive was an M20 flywheel and clutch kit. Does anyone know if the m20 in a zf requires a m20 clutch fork? And if tje m20 clutch fork is different to what is used in the 36 zf’s?    Im wondering if perhaps this is the cause of my issue?

[B.M.W Ltd 950]

It's not the fork. As I've mentioned above it's the release bearing carrier. There are two different heights for these one is 10mm longer

[Funkyflynz 151]

24 minutes ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

It's not the fork. As I've mentioned above it's the release bearing carrier. There are two different heights for these one is 10mm longer

Thanks for the reply, i just don’t understand why The release bearing that was supplied with the kit by NZAD isnt the correct length, so frustrating.  

[B.M.W Ltd 950]

I've struck this before on conversions. Been caught out twice over the years. Some people have lengthened the slave pushrod, but then the fork can touch the clutch cover housing

[wrs 120]

Sorry, I can't help because I never found a solution using the D1 setup. I ended up changing the D1 Clutch Plate, Pressure Plate and Release Bearing to a standard M3 one and never looked back. I suspected the D1 Pressure Plate pivots the tynes at a different point which doesn't move the pressure plate ring back as far as the standard clutch plate does - this was never actually verified though. I kept the light flywheel but wish I'd drilled a hole in it for the locking pin since it doesn't come with one standard.

I sold the used parts on TM to someone with an E36 328 & ZF box and they had no trouble with it. I suspect it work's ok with a standard setup with Dual-Mass Flywheel & ZF box. I have the 6-Speed S6S420G box which must have some small differences.

[Funkyflynz 151]

Interesting, do you recall which way you installed the clutch disk?  Flat side to the flywheel or gearbox?  

[Funkyflynz 151]

5 hours ago, B.M.W Ltd said:

I've struck this before on conversions. Been caught out twice over the years. Some people have lengthened the slave pushrod, but then the fork can touch the clutch cover housing

With NZAD conversions?  I called them up and apparently with their kit you need to install the clutch disk back to front, normally flat side to the flywheel and the sprung hub on the gbox side, but its the other way around with their kit

[wrs 120]

I installed it as-per their instructions which is backwards from memory. The clutch plate has a big sticker on the plastic wrapper showing which way to install it. It's a good idea not to unwrap it until just before you need it - once the wrapper is off there's no indication which way it should be installed so it would be easy to accidentally get it wrong if unwrapped and put on the bench...

Another problem I had with the D1 Clutch kit (other than not disengaging properly) was shuddering when taking off from stand-still. With the really light flywheel it will have quite a bit of speed variation at lower RPM. This combined with the springs in the clutch plate seems to create quite a bit of shudder. The standard M3 clutch plate has no springs and no shudder...