Airbag recalls

[richard 384]

so why aren't  they replaced when the car gets to a certain age when going for a WOF eg every 10 yrs.

 

[polley 916]

Not sure they are very cheap. And with modern cars having 8 or so airbags, would prob write the car off.

Edited August 26, 2017 by E30 325i Rag-Top
Quote..

[Gabe79 410]

44 minutes ago, polley said:

Not sure they are very cheap. And with modern cars having 8 or so airbags, would prob write the car off.

Brand new airbags cost upwards of $1k each...

[richard 384]

And I care  how much... 000 %

when faced with a truck that's crossed the road and my options are hit the truck with out dated airbags or new ones , I'll take the new ones.

If that means that older car are made obsolete then so be it .

safty

safte

saftey

safety

got there.

[NZ BMW 368]

If that was the case, most people in New Zealand would probably not be able to afford a car. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by E30 325i Rag-Top
Quote prev post

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

There is nothing to stop you putting new airbags in your car, is there Richard?

 

[richard 384]

fortunately I drive a company van and is replaced every 3 years but that's not the point here.

My comment was about the degradation of the airbags over time.

even a minor accident that sets off the airbags may kill you defeating the whole purpose of them.

Its not just the driver. Its everyone in the car that gets affected .

Edited August 25, 2017 by richard

[zero 1162]

Yea, it makes me wonder how accurate the claim of airbags having a 10 or so year life.

If it were true, surely WOF would require them to be replaced seeing as they are such an important safety item?

Some cars had them in the early 70's, although I dont know when BMW first had them.

Edited August 26, 2017 by E30 325i Rag-Top
Quote prev post

[allan 295]

When I dismantled the donor car a 2001 325 sedan the curtain air bags from memory had a expiry date  of 2016/17 on them.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

@3pedals may have some anecdotal (or even actual) evidence in the area of airbags not functioning due to age

On 26/08/2017 at 0:59 PM, zero said:

Yea, it makes me wonder how accurate the claim of airbags having a 10 or so year life.

If it were true, surely WOF would require them to be replaced seeing as they are such an important safety item?

 

[kiwi535 538]

in other news my 2009 pajero will have driver and passenger airbags repalced tomorrow.Well thats the plan.The passenger one may not arrive in time

I did not get any notification they told me when i booked it in for a service.After i told them rego number they said they would be repacing the bags.

Edited August 29, 2017 by kiwi535

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

On ‎25‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 3:49 PM, richard said:

so why aren't  they replaced when the car gets to a certain age when going for a WOF eg every 10 yrs.

A very good question, one to ask NZTA possibly? I think it is because the "expiry" date is like a "best before" date used on food, which says something along the lines of "it really would be a good idea if you replaced these parts after this time" rather than "you must replace", which combined with the practicalities of checking the dates on the bags in a car kind of put it outside the realms of most inspection processes. I have heard anecdotally of countries that use the airbags as a barrier to used imports, where they do insist on them being changed which makes things cost prohibitive, whether true or not I cannot say 100% as I have never tried to import an old car into those places.

I also understand that with most airbag inflation reactions, the material gets less volatile over time, so what happens as the airbag gets old is that it will still work, but can possibly deploy a little slower / not as large as originally designed. Which whilst not ideal, is not the end of the world.

The problem with the Takata style airbags is that they are having the opposite effect, the presence of water, absorbed from moisture, in the chemical acts as an accelerant to the reaction so they actually deploy quicker, ie. more violently, and as a result of that uncontrolled deployment the metal casing is not failing in the way intended which has resulted in pieces of metal shrapnel being produced and sent into the cabin of the car. Which is unfortunately much more of a danger.

Latest situation with the Takata company would appear to be that Key Safety Systems are looking to take over the "embattled" Takata for US$1.59 billion. The approximate number of cars affected is now over 100 million.

[richard 384]

so what happens when a car gets to say 40 yrs old and has the same air bags.

I have trouble with the car manufacturers  saying its the supplier's fault and now its buyer beware. Even if its not Takata.

this is a safety device.

not a gearbox, diff, motor, tyres. etc.

In the aircraft industry a world wide bulletin goes out every time there is a fault found and those aircraft can be grounded until fixed.

 

[Gabe79 410]

9 minutes ago, richard said:

so what happens when a car gets to say 40 yrs old and has the same air bags.

I have trouble with the car manufacturers  saying its the supplier's fault and now its buyer beware. Even if its not Takata.

this is a safety device.

not a gearbox, diff, motor, tyres. etc.

In the aircraft industry a world wide bulletin goes out every time there is a fault found and those aircraft can be grounded until fixed.

 

I don't think there is an answer to this question yet. Airbags started being mandated only from 1989. I expect the internal combustion engine will be deprecated before airbag age becomes a serious issue.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Gabe79

[richard 384]

surely any vehicle no matter what the propulsion would have airbags in the future . How will this be managed.

[zero 1162]

30 minutes ago, Gabe79 said:

I don't think there is an answer to this question yet. Airbags started being mandated only from 1989. I expect the internal combustion engine will be deprecated before airbag age becomes a serious issue.

Cars had them since the 1970's though.

[Gabe79 410]

Just now, zero said:

Cars had them since the 1970's though.

Yes, but they weren't ubiquitous at that stage.

 

The airline industry analogy doesn't work, or apply here. That is a much more regulated/formalized industry than car manufacturing. We don't have an entire investigation every time a car crashes to determine the cause of the crash with mandated industry-wide change every time.  This will vary by country and until a country like the US, or China (the EU?), start mandating airbag age checks/replacements/whatever, this isn't going to change, I don't think. There are exceptions, of course, but mostly by accident. Cars in some countries have to meet emissions standards, which sort of go along with age and are rolling forward, so a country like Singapore, or Japan, won't have an issue with airbag age, as a function of emissions checks mandating newer cars.

[richard 384]

then neither does the food industry.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

19 hours ago, richard said:

so what happens when a car gets to say 40 yrs old and has the same air bags.

I have trouble with the car manufacturers  saying its the supplier's fault and now its buyer beware. Even if its not Takata.

In the aircraft industry a world wide bulletin goes out every time there is a fault found and those aircraft can be grounded until fixed.

 

I think this thread is getting a bit muddled, there are two seperate topics here, the original one with Takata made bags that are being recalled and the slightly off topic one about old bags in general.

Short answer to first question - who knows, not many bags out there that are 40 years old. Again I believe it is recommended that the bags are changed, up to you if you want to do it or not. Have a looking the owner's handbook, probably in there somewhere.

Not sure where you get the bit about the car manufacturer's saying buyer beware, I hope it's not off anything I have posted from my personal view point. Yes, it is a safety device, but so are brakes, wheels, tyres, suspension, etc. all need to be properly maintained for the vehilce to function as designed, so do air bags. Again it is "recommended" that you change your brake fluid every two or so years, when was the last time anyone did that as a service item?

The automotive industry has a number of different levels of recall, from, a pro-active recall such as the Takata bags where the cars are searched for, to have a look at it next time it's in the dealership, to if it becomes an issue then fix it. The same levels of traceability are used in car manufacture as aircraft, the issue then comes during it's use where any Tom, Richard, Jon or Fred and bugger about with things and fit any old cheap copy part to their car (which isn't quite so easy with aircraft, but still not unknown).

I used the food analogy as it was something people could relate to as the difference between a "recommendation" and a "must do", not because the two situations are comparable, although some of the f$%k ups in the food industry are even more of a health issue and the traceablility woeful by comparison.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

The same levels of traceability are used in car manufacture as aircraft, the issue then comes during it's use where any Tom, Richard, Jon or Fred and bugger about with things and fit any old cheap copy part to their car (which isn't quite so easy with aircraft, but still not unknown).

Way off topic now, but interestingly this has long been an issue in the aviation industry, to the point fake parts were found on Air Force One.

Richard seems to be looking for a government led solution (legislation?) for the problem of aging airbags, this is a nice idea but ignores the many cars out there without airbags and no real focus on safety in their design, are all the old Chevs Caddys and Fords going to be declared unroadworthy? I feel that as modern cars tend to have a more finite shelf life, the problem of ageing airbags isn't really worth worrying about- and like brake fluid, while not mandated in law to be looked after, the vehicles owner is welcome to buy new airbags as they age.

Really, the discussion is pointless until someone can prove "old" airbags are somehow dangerous/ won't function correctly, all that has been presented so far is speculation they may not work. In the pharmaceutical industry, drugs are tested for efficacy after a certain shelf life and this is what dictates the "best before" date, ie Panadol will still work when it has expired, but the manufacturer has not tested it past however many years so they cannot guarantee it will work, thus they advise you to throw it away. Who can say the same principle isn't being applied here.

[richard 384]

3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Short answer to first question - who knows, not many bags out there that are 40 years old. Again I believe it is recommended that the bags are changed, up to you if you want to do it or not. Have a looking the owner's handbook, probably in there somewhere.

That's the point Jon. A responsible owner would change them.

But as a passenger in a vehicle, be it a friend , ubar, taxi, workmate who knows , that's why I asked the question about how long they last and would they deploy properly.

3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Not sure where you get the bit about the car manufacturer's saying buyer beware, I hope it's not off anything I have posted from my personal view point. Yes, it is a safety device, but so are brakes, wheels, tyres, suspension, etc. all need to be properly maintained for the vehilce to function as designed, so do air bags. Again it is "recommended" that you change your brake fluid every two or so years, when was the last time anyone did that as a service item?

No Jon nothing you said, But..

Brakes, wheels ,suspension

are checked at the wof station and cars over 10 yrs every 6 months ( not airbags)

3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

I used the food analogy as it was something people could relate to as the difference between a "recommendation" and a "must do", not because the two situations are comparable, although some of the f$%k ups in the food industry are even more of a health issue and the traceablility woeful by comparison.

that's ok, I used the aircraft one as the pinnacle for  balance.

[richard 384]

2 hours ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

Richard seems to be looking for a government led solution (legislation?) for the problem of aging airbags, this is a nice idea but ignores the many cars out there without airbags and no real focus on safety in their design, are all the old Chevs Caddys and Fords going to be declared unroadworthy? I feel that as modern cars tend to have a more finite shelf life, the problem of ageing airbags isn't really worth worrying about- and like brake fluid, while not mandated in law to be looked after, the vehicles owner is welcome to buy new airbags as they age.

A solution ,Yes . These are a new device that have no checks and to rely on owners will prove costly.

Older cars like chev, caddys ,model T fords never came with airbags , so I would expect that they will fad with the passing of time.

[richard 384]

2 hours ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

Really, the discussion is pointless until someone can prove "old" airbags are somehow dangerous/ won't function correctly, all that has been presented so far is speculation they may not work. In the pharmaceutical industry, drugs are tested for efficacy after a certain shelf life and this is what dictates the "best before" date, ie Panadol will still work when it has expired, but the manufacturer has not tested it past however many years so they cannot guarantee it will work, thus they advise you to throw it away. Who can say the same principle isn't being applied here.

this will cost someone life.

[richard 384]

I forgot about when seat belts first came out and were retro fitted to older cars, it was the end of the world for some people, now its standard practices and they are checked in a WOF too.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

Airbags will not be retro-fittable to cars not already designed for it though. My old Lancer GSR had an airbag, many other Lancers of the same generation had none but fitting an airbag to them wouldn't require anywhere near the expenditure/effort as fitting one to say my father in laws Capri.

Remember not all old cars were or are required to be retro fitted with seatbelts.