e46 Touring - audio refresh

[Olaf 3339]

okay, so I'm doing 70-80kms each day (round trip) for my commute; spending so much time in the car, I'm thinking some improved audio would make my daily grind better.  I'll lay out some context and objectives, before we get into objectives.

1.  Audio.  I listen to music.  I used to be an audiophile.  I'm more a 'flat earther' - the whole Linn/Naim thing from the 70's/80's that focuses on PRaT (Pace, Rythmn, and Timing)... and I continue to decry this BS notion of "soundstage" on the basis its not reall experienced in the studio (it's manufactured), rarely encountered live (sound reinforcement, baby), and is usually delivered by HiFi systems that are rythmically challenged (e.g. the Bass Player is about to fall asleep, he's so far out of time with the drummer you're thinking he's taken a mandrax, whilst the rythmn guitarist is on speed)... yes I run a Naim Audio system at home, still spin my records on a Linn LP12, and favour headphones by AKG and Beyer Dynamic.     

Conclusion?  Don't give me typical Japanese Audio with cut-glass highs and slow plodding over-blown one-note bass.  I want TIMING, TIMING, TIMING, I want fast, tuneful bass, I wasnt it musical, baby.  I honestly think most ICE enthusiasts have never heard truly good hifi, and rarely listen to live music.  

I am not looking for a disco in my car!

I like the approach Neal has taken to his M3; I just don't have the committment to go that far!  I'm not sure I'm going to need electronic x-overs and stuff.

2.  The car.  

• The factory head unit stays.  This is a constraint.  I realise - and recognise Source First (Garbage in, Garbage out) - that this is a constraint.  I also like the integration - auto volume etc - and one day I may even  get a sports steering wheel with integrated controls!
• My car lives on the street - it must be stealth.  I will not sacrifice trunk space and utility for a sub box.  Any sub must be small, tight, tuneful - either mounted in the side panel, or abover the space saver spare in the trunk floor.  I realise with a small box it probably constrains me to a small driver; this is a compromise I can live with.  My sub must not be lagging behind the music; it's about sound reinforcement, not SPL sound-offs.  
• I'd like to have iPhone integration (lightning or bluetooth); I can sacrifice the CD changer for this.  Oh, and no visible or irreversible hacks to the interior; this should be removable.  I listen to FM and CD's.  Being able to play from my phone and or spotify would be good.
• It must be removable/reversible.  It may cost a bit for this kit, so it should be able to go with me.  I doubt that a flash audio system adds $$ to the value of your car, just helps it sell to the right buyer.

3.  The work:  I'm past massive fabrication work.  I don't mind the idea of building a custom-fit sub box, but speaker pods and all that malarky, no thanks.  I'm impressed by what others do, I'm sticking to 'simple'.  Some dynamat in key places to quiet things down/stiffen things up:  yes, by all means!

4.  What am I thinking?  new 2-way component speakers in the front, an amp, and a sub.  I read this from Audio-file In Car, UK and thought "I know the Audio File from my time in UK, they did Naim and real british HiFi... this is probably a good approach to music in the car" (as opposed to screechy in-car entertainment)... I don't know which iPhone integration box to use.  So as a base kit list (doesn't seem cheap - can I do similar and still avoid awful screechy out of time ICE for less money:

- Front speakers:  Focal 165 VRS (shallow mount component speakers)

- Amp: JL Audio XD500/3

- Sub:  some kind of small sub in a custom enclosure. (did I say must be fast, tuneful, no one-note bass)

- other:  iPhone integration unit.

- other: ability to add a streaming source later - perhaps phone controlled?

- other: what if I want to amp-up the other speakers later? And possibly improve the speakers in the rear doors and the load area?

As you can see, the kit above ain't cheap.  Perhaps there's a shallow-mount 6.5" component speaker solution from Focal or Boston Acoustics that will much of this for half the price?  The amp looks like a great solution; is there something less expensive that's nearly as good?

I'm just starting out on this, it'll take me a while to suss out.  Cabling - I'd rather do it once... I guess the amp will sit beneath the comms deck in the boot, forward of the spare wheel well, behind the rear seat, like this (with thanks to Neil Mukerji).  Mine is basically empty, being a Japan-spec '02 325i Touring.  I'm thinking there'll be plenty of new cabling to be done, and a good strong power feed and earth for a new amp?

As you can see, I've a lot to consider, and a bit to catch up on.  I want to keep it simple, and am aware I'm compromising a bit wit hthe constraints I've chosen.  

The journey begins.

 

[Herbmiester 931]

Just remember the space inside your car with its combination of hard and soft surfaces is a constraint and that combined with road and engine noise means that what ever you do will always be a compromise. Also the quality of the DACS in you factory head unit or converter box a major factor. I run a cheap after market JVC head unit and its audio quality is at least as good as factory. I am sure you know that if you are streaming off an iPhone then the quality is already compromised, a good CD player  will up that. 

A friend spent 20g on interior sound in the 90s not for the boom boom but for the quality. His comment was that after he had spent 2k the quality increase was marginal. He also stated that with mp3 being so lossy that hi-fi in cars is a waste of money.

[zero 1162]

Richard, I like the old skool sound just like you do.

Prat beats everything else.

At home I run a combination of sonic frontiers, ead, sansui, rotel, denon, and b&w.

 

When I did the stereo in my wifes e46 I was on a very tight budget, so some sacrifices were made;

I retained the bmw headdeck and stacker and ran high level lines to two second hand alpine v12 amps in the boot. (the good v12's from the nineties before the quality went downhill.) These then powered some cheap 6.5 vifa front components, and cheap 6.5 vifa rears. I used decent cable and soldered and heatshrinked the connections to avoid oxidation. The biggest improvement by a HUGE margin was cutting holes in the front doors and building pods behind the door card. Dynamatt is expensive so I used butyl based sill flashing tape.

If I had my time again, I would use better speakers as that is my weak link.

I strongly suggest you get some front door pods built and the hole cut in the doors - I can put up pics if you like.

[Neal 546]

Sub'd..

I'd also do a few things differently if I'd started over. Keeping the factory HU does limit the sound. I did trace it down to the last "output stage" as the sound quality taken straight from the op amps after the Dac is quite good.

speaker wise I'd either find a better off axis Tweeter or pillar mount the tweeters. I'd also get morel drivers via parts express as my $k plus PPIs dont deliver sq to the price paid. I'd also go 6.5 or 8s on mid bass.

cabling wise I'd use factory speaker wiring via technic harness adaptor as not convinced that my single run 14 gauge wiring has delivered.

Sources are fickle. Sq in my car is best by raspberry Pi with $60 optical USB dongle, then iPhone 5s or 6 via analogue and last the factory system. All of these sources connect to a dsp / preamp. Some of the top comp car systems are iPad based now with optical into dsp so iOS streaming can be done well.

Dsp wise, time alignment seems to have given good gains but I've had issues with two brands of dsp having some kind of failure.

Id also check out some newer class d Amos as they run cold and are smaller for the install.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Neal

[Olaf 3339]

many thanks for the replies, guys!

John:  yep, *listening* in the car is sh*t, I've always spent my bucks on home stereo and driven cheap (old, used) cars.  I've no intent on laying down loadsamoney on a car audiophile experience, just getting better than what's there.  In fact, unless I can get tight tunefull bass that's compact, the sub is 'optional'.  CD better, I only want iPhone connection for convenience.

Nathan:  solder and heatshrink sounds like me, I'm a former comms tech and appreciate a good connection.  I wondered about sill flashing tape, basically the same stuff?  The Vifas should be good VFM, though the Morels that Neal mentions are prolly next step up, yeah?  I don't have a garage, so the downtime building pods won't really fly for me, unless I could build it in a day or so.  I appreciate what it would do to firm up the sound... would like to see as many pictures as you have of the build so I can figure out if its acheivable.

Neal:  Re the tweeters, the Wagon has just the basic system, so tweeter in the triangle 'sail' mount above the door by the mirror, and (I think) 6.5" mid bass.  If I was to 'mix and match', I guess I'd be building my own x-over?? 

Re the Technic harness, I'd like to know more about this.  If my amp is to go under the comms deck in the boot, I'm picking I'll be running a lot of cable anyway.

Having option of a Pi sounds good, will slowly evolve this thinking.  The JL Audio amps are class D; and I think they have HL inputs too.

Will need to check out if the CD43 has line outs anywhere.

Got any links for Morel drivers suitable for this project?

cheers

[Olaf 3339]

scratch that, I see Morel make 2 way component car audio speakers with x-overs... 

Quote

 

 

[Neal 546]

http://stores.ebay.com/WoofersEtc/_i.html?_nkw=Morel&submit=Search&_sid=709899467

ive brought speakers via these guys and they are good to deal with (woofersetc)

the space behind the door card and door metal is the limiting factor for some of the choices. If you will to cut an opening then more of the morel range will fit.

sail area is better location for tweeters than m3 door location. Makes the distance between right tweeter and midbass more equal to the right ear.

Consider going active on your speaker by getting two 4 channel amps. 4 channel upfront ( just use amp high and low pass filters)

 

use another 4 channel in tri mode .2 channels for rear fill and two channels bridged for sub. Put a y rca lead in so the sub gets its rca feed from the front speaker amp. That will keep volume in check.

 

back to the morels. So check  the morel car series prices with the individual drivers available parts-express.com.By buying from parts express you may find you can go the range for a similar price by dropping the crossovers.

eg tweeter

http://www.parts-express.com/morel-mdt-12-1-1-8-neodymium-tweeter--277-060

mid bass if these can be made to fit ( see Zeros door build)

note, one of these look to be the drivers in NZ image speakers

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/midrange-midbass-drivers-full-range-speakers/16?N=21631+4294967118+4294965095+4294965077+4294964893+4294964980&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_PortalID"%2C"1")+and+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_Searchable"%2C"1")]&PortalID=1

sub wise I'm guessing a hidden box . There is a new 8 inch sub on the market that might fit the bill. 

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um8-22-8-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-508

 

Speaker wiring.

looking at wds the midbass wiring is 1.5mm2 or roughly 15 gauge. You can run new wiring via the door connector but u found this to be a high labour low reward experience. BMWs tyco / amp connector is licensed hence you don't see many aftermarket looms.

i did come across this guy who mad the amplifier connector from scratch. He offers a range of plug in harnesses for BMW audio

https://technicpnp.com/shop/

 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Neal
Limited internet access

[zero 1162]

Hey Richard,

The vifas i got turned out to be just chinese crap that had just bought the brand name.

I got them from jaycar and they were cheap, but I should have done my research first.

 

Below is a picture of the pods I made, but I'm sure a decent car audio installer could make and install some for you.

This was by far the biggest improvement to my system. I did one door first and then sat in the car playing with the balance and the difference was night and day - the volume almost doubled, the bass extended a long way and became much stronger, and vocals improved dramatically with better clarity and separation.

It was an effort to make the 6.5 in the front, and a 6 inch would be much easier but I wanted a 6.5 as I'm not running a sub.

A sub isn't really necessary in this setup unless you listen to alot of drum and bass etc.

 

In my opinion on all the e46's the weakest link is the speakers.

IMO first upgrade on a e46 would be speakers, second upgrade would be speakers + amp, third upgrade would be speakers + amp + head deck.

The factory wiring is not too bad, but its proboably worth looking at some cheap sound deadening and removing rattles.

Neals suggestion of using a four channel amp to actively biamp is a good one, although I must admit to not being a fan of class D amps.

 

Keep us updated, and good luck.

 

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by zero

[NZ BMW 368]

There is a bunch of used Harmon Cardon stuff on EBay as well as pre-fit speaker holders. I don't claim to know about audio but that might be useful. 

Also if I recall correctly the guy's in the US always recommended the BavSound stuff for their E39s and E46s. 

Given what you're trying to do, it all comes as a bit and is just plug and play. 

[hotwire 352]

Ahh, Another LP12 operator - I admire!

Mine running through Plinius M12 pre & SA100 power into Kappa 7's. Rega CD. Superb sound from the LP12 on a good recording.

Strange huh that things have gone full circle & vynal is making a comeback. Funny that! My 16 year old audiofile son, although using modern mediums, is even sold on vynal as the best.

As is mentioned earlier in the thread - due to the constraints of acoustics in a vehicle, i have never got too serious with car audio. In saying that though, still like a clean sound.

Interested on what you come up with

[Olaf 3339]

yes Grant, people have been nodding sagely for decades now, telling me Vinyl's on it's way back.  I tilt my head sideways and give them a look; say "for many of us, it's never gone!".  I remember talking with one of the guys from Naim Audio - when I first met him, he told me he used to run an LP12 when the Naim CDS-1 was released, and promptly sold all his vinyl as the CDS-1 was the answer.  A few years later he was somewhat regretful of that decision!     Meanwhile, CD replay has continued to improve...  now it seems that the streaming solutions that Naim have released have eclipsed even the CD-555.

Anyway, in-car is my focus - I'm thinking Neal's suggested solution of a 4 chan amp using the built-in x-overs to active bi-amp (another very Naim thing), with some Morel drivers is a good idea.  I may be able to bring myself to build pods - perhaps it's a two stage thing... install speakers and amps, make the measurements, learn how to get those door panels off.... then come back in a month later with adaptor rings and a sheet metal nibbler.

More research...

[Olaf 3339]

20 hours ago, NZ BMW said:

There is a bunch of used Harmon Cardon stuff on EBay as well as pre-fit speaker holders. I don't claim to know about audio but that might be useful. 

Also if I recall correctly the guy's in the US always recommended the BavSound stuff for their E39s and E46s. 

Given what you're trying to do, it all comes as a bit and is just plug and play. 

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm getting the impression the HK system can be troublesome, and is more badge-engineering (a great money-spinner in the option-box department during ordering.  If it was great people wouldn't be selling them off.  The BavSound stuff was my starting point, though it seems expensive and not a huge improvement  (they're charging for bullet-proof integration, rather than super-quality components), from what I've read.  I'll take a deep breath, be brave, and do some of my own integrating.    ... following in others footsteps, and documenting as I go.

cheers!

[NZ BMW 368]

15 hours ago, Olaf said:

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm getting the impression the HK system can be troublesome, and is more badge-engineering (a great money-spinner in the option-box department during ordering.  If it was great people wouldn't be selling them off.  The BavSound stuff was my starting point, though it seems expensive and not a huge improvement  (they're charging for bullet-proof integration, rather than super-quality components), from what I've read.  I'll take a deep breath, be brave, and do some of my own integrating.    ... following in others footsteps, and documenting as I go.

cheers!

Put it this way, if it were me, I'd go for the BavSound. Which probably means it's not the way to go if you really know what you're doing! 

[Neal 546]

There are also kits similar to Bavsound using Dayton Rs drivers on eBay. But focal / morel in different league .

Bavsound have used a number of branded drivers over the years. Issue going that way is it still uses lower power factory amp. Won't meeting the dynamics wanted above

[Olaf 3339]

today I ordered a Jasper jig and 1/4" upcut router bit to match, coz I want to be able to cut nice regular circles in ply and MDF.

I was offered Focal ISN 165 components on TM for a shade ender $300 kiwi, tempted as cheaper than polyglas VRS and cheaper than Morels and gets me moving, but then found inconsistent info about 6.5 or 6.75" driver size (from a variety of sources) and didn't know if a 6.75" driver will fit in the doors, nor the tweets.  EDIT: The depth is okay (2.25").. couldn't find info on the tweeter size and found its an alloy dome (was never keen on those in domestic hifi).

So yes, getting prepared to make rings, it could be I'm going to cut holes in the sheet steel in the front doors.  It makes sense really.  I already have a good router and sheets of 18mm MDF stock in my basement, and this would appear to get me further ahead in audio than a larger spend on drivers and leaving the doors virginal.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Olaf
more specs

[Onizukachan 5]

As far as your sub issue in a touring, don't forget the factory sub option was under the rear load floor. Small, 8" I think, but people have made much larger boxes that don't require you to lose the spare, though you do have to lose the carpeting under the floor. 

Even seen them for sale on Amazon and eBay. 

[Olaf 3339]

1 hour ago, Onizukachan said:

As far as your sub issue in a touring, don't forget the factory sub option was under the rear load floor. Small, 8" I think, but people have made much larger boxes that don't require you to lose the spare, though you do have to lose the carpeting under the floor. 

Even seen them for sale on Amazon and eBay. 

thanks for that, I'd not gotten much further.  sort of put the project on hold, bought an e60 as main car, the e46 is becoming the family run around.  later in the year I'll get back to it and revive the hifi project.  I think a sub-floor sub would be essential, can't see Mrs Olaf wanting to compromise grocery space for a sub box!

[Onizukachan 5]

mine wasn't supposed to be a family car either... but life happens, grows, is born, and needs a stroller that takes up half the boot...  

 

dont forget our tourings are sedan based, so be careful not to be led astray by coupe/convertible door installs. They are quite different in fitment! 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Onizukachan

[zero 1162]

Sedan and touring doors are the same essentially.

Coupe doors are definitely different for building door pods.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 6:49 PM, Olaf said:

I think a sub-floor sub would be essential, can't see Mrs Olaf wanting to compromise grocery space for a sub box!

The planning, designing and buying phase is almost as much fun as the listening stage in most audio projects for me, certainly beats the install phase for enjoyment. So you can spend more time on this part now with the delay.

One other option to possibly consider would be the under-seat style sub that are used in the latest BMW models, not necessarily the exact parts but the idea of where to put it. Certainly gives what I would call a good bass in the car without being obtrusive into your useable space. I believe the latest designs use the void in the sills of the car and the body to help with the response of the subs as they are connected together - I doubt this would be possible or work with the E46 if it wasn't designed for it in the first place.

[Olaf 3339]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:21 AM, 3pedals said:

P.S. sound stage is real I  hear it most evenings

yeah William, I acknowledge that there are - the large proportion of - audiophools who devote their lives to the pursuit of soundstage.  I lost all interest in it when I found that the systems I heard that excelled in soundstage,  almost exclusively fell completely flat when it came to rhythm, timing... that sense of fun that you experience when the band is in front of you, playing together, and playing in time.  Swing.  I don't give a flying faark if I can discern a jazz quartet playing in space in front of me, if the bassplayer doesn't sound like he's locked-in with the drummer!  It is for this reason I beleive this whole soundstaging malarky is in fact a wrong turn or even a distraction in the pursuit of musical reproduction.  By contrast, a decent system that portrays the rhythm and the spontinaety of music well, will still provide me with enough (minimal) spatial information - such as the backup singers in 'walk on the wild side' walking up toward the vocal mics - and away again - while they're "doo, doo-doo, doot, doot-doot-doot"-ing.

Still, could we be arguing the same point, as you're talking about rythmic information and the things that cause smearing?

Back to cavity loading/porting - yep we're on the same page there.  I still trot out - from time to time - that ported speakers are in fact the work of the devil, and transmission lines, doubly so!

Extending this to car audio, subwoofers have to be fast, able to turn on a dime, to follow the bassline, and not get overcome by the kick drum.  I'm finding that the Logic7 in the e60 is still a bit slow in the bass.  Aside from tuning via the equalisers, not much I can do about that, so I have to fogive it its trespasses.

[Neal 546]

I've been thinking about Jon's idea of under-seat mounting for a while now. Or a variation of it at least based on the e46 where they still have underseat air ducting so directly underseat not an option.

When I did my m3 install I found the e46 has two deepish cavities that sit between the sill / seat / and heal space. The area has a hard foam insert that just comes out. Looked like enough air space for a 6.5 to 8 inch woofer.Was thinking of something like a Gladen woofer (shallow) and a fibreglass enclosure using a e60 woofer cover or similar. Would bring more mid bass to the front.

Having seen the de-evolution of the wife's car audio system (started with Sony hu with good preamp specs, 6.5 comps , ribbon tweeters, 10 inch sealed sub , 60w and 300w amp  to just HU powering and front comps) you quickly release that space becomes the driver and anything that takes boot space has to come out :-(

Anyways Olaf, I see this been the evolution of my system so thought id share. I'm not going to cut the M3 doors, but for your install could solve the bass question without giving up the rear cargo space.

Anyway .... got to stop these day dreams and finish the damm Mini ........

 

On the sub front its personal taste and so many factors in cars. Sometimes you want that perfect bumph out of a kickdrum ...other times you just want to pulverise the living s..t out of your senses and re-live being 10 meters way from the W bins at that Faithless concert.

 

 

 

[Onizukachan 5]

I've always wondered if the e83 underseat subs would fit in an e46, but I've never had seats out of either car. 

I will say the e83 stock for stock is a much more satisfying experience, and that is the only difference between it and my wagon. (And slightly more interior ft3) 

the seat brackets are taller though, so it would probably be a no go in the e46 which is a shame. 

[Neal 546]

10 hours ago, Onizukachan said:

I've always wondered if the e83 underseat subs would fit in an e46, but I've never had seats out of either car. 

I will say the e83 stock for stock is a much more satisfying experience, and that is the only difference between it and my wagon. (And slightly more interior ft3) 

the seat brackets are taller though, so it would probably be a no go in the e46 which is a shame. 

Didn't have enough room directly underseat but looked to be enough forward of the seats next to the door sills.

[zero 1162]

Any progress on this install? Im in the same boat and have discovered today that the aftermarket 6.5 speakers dont fit in the touring rear speaker factory pods