Talk to me about the E65...

[Gabe79 410]

There's a nice looking 2002 735i for sale on the way out of the Penninsula. Low-ish miles, etc... I've read/watched a bit about the E65 and how ugly, and unpopular it is.

 

How is it for reliability, and DIY-ness? Or does it belong to that slightly-newer-than-the-e39/e46 where I can't really plausibly do my own maintenance?

[Breaker 980]

I believe the electrics on this are stupid complex for the time as it was very advanced for 2001 when it came out and are a bit of a time boom. Heard some horror stories on multiple ecu and modules needing replacing just to diagnose issues and that was from a trained BMW spanned man.

That said, if it works today and it’s cheap, if it dies you can bin it, probably a good long distance ride, if you get there.

[gjm 3258]

Not this one?

612hp, 1000Nm torque...

Not sure I'd want to work on it at home.

[Breaker 980]

I’d look at a 740 or 728 E38, there a great drive, but I’m biased. More Refined version of your E39

[NZ BMW 368]

I believe the face lifted 740i and 750i were much better. However you then deal with the valve stem issues all those V8s have.

[KillerX 40]

The E38 SPORT models i drove overseas didn,t mind a bit of the twisty stuff now and then. You had to be really silly to get them all out of shape

[Gabe79 410]

2 hours ago, gjm said:

Not this one?

612hp, 1000Nm torque...

Not sure I'd want to work on it at home.

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/bmw/auction-1548581019.htm

As it turns out, it's this one.

 

3 hours ago, Breaker said:

I believe the electrics on this are stupid complex for the time as it was very advanced for 2001 when it came out and are a bit of a time boom. Heard some horror stories on multiple ecu and modules needing replacing just to diagnose issues and that was from a trained BMW spanned man.

That said, if it works today and it’s cheap, if it dies you can bin it, probably a good long distance ride, if you get there.

See, that's the thing I can't sell to the wife. It has to get there.

 

2 hours ago, Breaker said:

I’d look at a 740 or 728 E38, there a great drive, but I’m biased. More Refined version of your E39

I've considered this. The 530i is really exclusively used for longer drives, which I would welcome the comfort for...

 

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

E39 is a much more refined drive than the E38 as it is a more nimble car   and in sport set -up (Proper E39's that is:  not  poverty packs or  lardy slush-mobiles) the 38's were disapointingly vague and didn't like a nudge in the twisty stuff - get all out of shape.  The E65 is however on a par with the E39 and a good balance of dynamics and comfort. I have always liked the styling of the 65 way ahead of the 38 which is bland and generic. In 35 iteration they are a bit short of stick - pick would be the 730d much more torque for daily driving and none of those annoying V8 issues like valve guides and drinking problems.  Only dislike of the E65 is at over 5 metres it trails over 400 mm further back than my X5 so won't fit in the garage.  

I don't have these garage issues. See, the problem you're having, is your garage is too short... I have no such problem, by virtue of not having a garage! (I do technically, but it's basically a large-ish storage shed!)

I can't really decide what to do with my e39. Every time I use it, I enjoy it... but for perspective, my sister-in-law, and her husband borrowed it for a week, and drove more than I've driven it in a year... I'm thinking something more spacious, maybe a Touring e39/e46? Maybe an e38, or as is the case in this thread, an e65? I don't mind fuel consumption, because it's so seldom used. What I want are two things, I think... comfort for the family, and the ability to do whatever it needs myself. I get all this with the e39 for medium range, but if we want to do an extended stay in Wellington, for example, we'd struggle due to lack of cargo space, this the Touring idea. Maybe I should just go for a X5?

[NZ BMW 368]

Can’t speak highly enough of the X5 as a vehicle. They’re extremely versatile. 

[Eagle 1661]

Looks aside the E65 is worse to work on, much more to go wrong and still depreciating.  Ive always maintained they cheap for a reason.      

Re: E38 M60 4L SWB would be my idea E38 from reliability\cost point of view

[Olaf 3309]

13 hours ago, Gabe79 said:

I can't really decide what to do with my e39. Every time I use it, I enjoy it... but for perspective, my sister-in-law, and her husband borrowed it for a week, and drove more than I've driven it in a year... I'm thinking something more spacious, maybe a Touring e39/e46? Maybe an e38, or as is the case in this thread, an e65? I don't mind fuel consumption, because it's so seldom used. What I want are two things, I think... comfort for the family, and the ability to do whatever it needs myself. I get all this with the e39 for medium range, but if we want to do an extended stay in Wellington, for example, we'd struggle due to lack of cargo space, this the Touring idea. Maybe I should just go for a X5?

Hi Gabe, might I suggest:  e60 545i.  Come to the dark side!

- improved dynamics over e65

- no electronic module issues (unless you have blocked drains).  The battery charge cable doodad is one exception (see my showroom thread for details).

- plenty of space for family and cargo on distance trips (though not as cavernish as a seven)

- 50:50 weight distribution!

- the risk of valve stem seal failure can be minimised with a good MBI

- the FUN of a V8, and a genuinely good drive

- quiet, comfortable, drive WLG-AKL and arrive feeling refreshed.

An e46 Touring doesn't give you a lot of space for family travel.  Once our offspring were both over ten, it became too tight.  It's great for 100< kms radius of home now that our little ones aren't so little.

An X5 is more complex, and uses more expensive rubber and rotors more regularly.  They're a great machine, and solve a specific problem.  If you don't have that problem, and want to keep things lower cost, I'd suggest a 5er is a more economical solution.  

And you can get a reasonable e60 545i for between $8-12k.

What's not to love?! 

PS:  this one looks solid, has been for sale for a while, has already had trans service - amazed it hasn't sold with low mileage and reasonable asking price.  https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/bmw/auction-1554895475.htm?rsqid=4e1394cba4f14c34b68faba0f7a60266 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Olaf
added TM link

[Gabe79 410]

On 2/24/2018 at 9:25 PM, NZ BMW said:

Can’t speak highly enough of the X5 as a vehicle. They’re extremely versatile. 

Thank you for the feedback. I need to do some serious wife-convincing to go this route. She thinks it's too big!

On 2/24/2018 at 9:31 PM, Eagle said:

Looks aside the E65 is worse to work on, much more to go wrong and still depreciating.  Ive always maintained they cheap for a reason.      

Re: E38 M60 4L SWB would be my idea E38 from reliability\cost point of view

I don't mind the prices on the E65, although I do share the sentiment they seem to be old enough for things to break, and new enough to have complex systems. From reading/watching, seems like they tested a lot of the systems that went into the e60 and e90 on the e65.

On 2/24/2018 at 9:56 PM, 3pedals said:

The 530i Motorsport is one of the best driving E39's so you have been spoilt and E38 is a slouch barge in comparison- it's an old late 80's early 90's chassis don't go there -- the E65 is a WAAAAAAAAAAAY better car and at the money that one is going for it is a lot of car, just lacking a few Newton metres ( about 100 actually) Or you could go to an X5 but to get a decent diesel they are decent money. 

I do like the driving experience. I am wondering if I'm not just making a lot of fuss over nothing, and should just stick to my e39, or maybe swap for a touring and be done with it.

 

23 hours ago, Olaf said:

Hi Gabe, might I suggest:  e60 545i.  Come to the dark side!

- improved dynamics over e65

- no electronic module issues (unless you have blocked drains).  The battery charge cable doodad is one exception (see my showroom thread for details).

- plenty of space for family and cargo on distance trips (though not as cavernish as a seven)

- 50:50 weight distribution!

- the risk of valve stem seal failure can be minimised with a good MBI

- the FUN of a V8, and a genuinely good drive

- quiet, comfortable, drive WLG-AKL and arrive feeling refreshed.

An e46 Touring doesn't give you a lot of space for family travel.  Once our offspring were both over ten, it became too tight.  It's great for 100< kms radius of home now that our little ones aren't so little.

An X5 is more complex, and uses more expensive rubber and rotors more regularly.  They're a great machine, and solve a specific problem.  If you don't have that problem, and want to keep things lower cost, I'd suggest a 5er is a more economical solution.  

And you can get a reasonable e60 545i for between $8-12k.

What's not to love?! 

PS:  this one looks solid, has been for sale for a while, has already had trans service - amazed it hasn't sold with low mileage and reasonable asking price.  https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/bmw/auction-1554895475.htm?rsqid=4e1394cba4f14c34b68faba0f7a60266 

I love that car, and the idea of that car. I even like the idea of the MBI, but it conflicts so hard with my self-imposed goal of working on my own car(s). For the e39, I have done everything it's needed so far, apart from wheel alignments. It's such a nice satisfying feeling... The e60, and the MBI, sort of put that out of my hands, and I'd have to get certified mechanics, and servicing to keep the MBI. It just feels more grown up than I think I am in my wrenching hobby right now.

[Olaf 3309]

just because you have an MBI, doesn't mean you can't wrench on your car!    If you think an e60 is complex, wait until you look at an X5 

 

[Gabe79 410]

19 minutes ago, Olaf said:

just because you have an MBI, doesn't mean you can't wrench on your car!    If you think an e60 is complex, wait until you look at an X5 

 

I actually thought MBIs had clauses that only certified mechanics could do the work on them... Same for servicing. Am I dreaming?

[Gabe79 410]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

Really- it's just a modern full time 4WD with 5 series technology - nothing complicated about it at all

As for MBI -  if you are relying on an MBI to cover the bills can you really afford to own and maintain the car?

I think my MBI comment was misunderstood.

I see MBI, or 'doing work on it myself' as mutually exclusive. 

I have made a conscious choice that I will do all the work on my BMW. That's the point of the car for me to some extent. (The car has to also work, so it can't be a full on project car style.)

So, having a MBI would mean to me, if I understand its requirements correctly, that I can't work on my own car, and whilst I suppose I'd be ok with that, I rather not give up my wrenching.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Gabe79

[Gabe79 410]

37 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

I take a similar approach - I do the bulk of work on my own cars and only take them to a (BMW, Saab, Toyota, Mitsubishi)  service agent for stuff I can't do  - because of this an MBI is of no value. I know what my car needs in the way of service and I plan and do preventative maintenance accordingly.

If you genuinely do preventative maintenance then an MBI is of no value.

That's not what I meant, but I agree with you.

 

What I meant was this:

 

If I get a MBI, then I won't do maintenance myself. I am under the impression I couldn't do maintenance myself i i wanted to as a condition of the MBI anyway...

No MBI > I do all the work myself. This is my preferred choice.

The question was, and the point that keeps coming up is that the e65/e30/e90 are not really DIY friendly. Lots of electronics and such.

[Eagle 1661]

Depends what you comparing it with and what skills\tools you have. Compared to a E39 its a leap forward in complexity. E39 aren't easy to work on compared to the older ones but the N62 engine looks terrible to work on if you had to fix the common failures. Suspension wise they shouldn't be much harder if any than E39

Id definitely want the BMW software package if i owned one.   

[Olaf 3309]

10 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Really- it's just a modern full time 4WD with 5 series technology - nothing complicated about it at all

As for MBI -  if you are relying on an MBI to cover the bills can you really afford to own and maintain the car?

1.  Sure.  It's just a car, right?  Any BMW specialist will tell you, that the maintenance budget for an X5 is more than double that of a 5er.  Stacking all that extra kit into an e39-era body, takes longer to do module replacements = repair complexity.

2.  Yes, of course you can.  Though IMHO the premature failure of valve guide seals presents the modern BMW V8 owner with a significant bill (read:  two plus days of labour, gasket set, seal kit) , that is certainly softened by MBI.   

Were I relying on MBI to cover bills, I'd not have proactively:  (take your pick):

• replaced all shock absorbers and related bushes/mounts
• replaced all coils
• replaced the mechatronic sleeve, bolts, and transmission pan + fluid

 

[Olaf 3309]

7 hours ago, 3pedals said:

I take a similar approach - I do the bulk of work on my own cars and only take them to a (BMW, Saab, Toyota, Mitsubishi)  service agent for stuff I can't do  - because of this an MBI is of no value. I know what my car needs in the way of service and I plan and do preventative maintenance accordingly.

If you genuinely do preventative maintenance then an MBI is of no value.

So amidst a sensible preventative maintenance programme - regardless of whether it's you or your garage doing the work - where your transmission goes *BANG* - and you're up for around $5k once GST is on there... an MBI would have been no value as *insurance*?

I'm afraid I'm just not seeing your viewpoint.

[Gabe79 410]

10 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Depends what you comparing it with and what skills\tools you have. Compared to a E39 its a leap forward in complexity. E39 aren't easy to work on compared to the older ones but the N62 engine looks terrible to work on if you had to fix the common failures. Suspension wise they shouldn't be much harder if any than E39

Id definitely want the BMW software package if i owned one.   

Fair point. My reference point is the M54b30 engine, on the E39 530i I have. Thus far, I have all the tools I'd want to do anything to it at a reasonable cost, including BMW Scanner/INPA/etc... What else might the e65 require beyond what I have? One more piece of info is this is basically the only car I know. I have oodles of resources for it, I can picture the process of removing bits down around the engine in my head. I know it sounds gimpy, I'm ok with that.

 

So to clarify what appears to be my misconception... Can I still wrench on my car and have the MBI still apply? I thought there was a criteria that it be regularly serviced by a licensed mechanic, for example...

[kiwi535 538]

i think this depends entirely on the MBI itself.My understanding is that the work must be shown to be done....the simple stuff would be no problem i would think.Keep recepits for oil etc,may be a pic or two .But this is only my understanding.Perhaps someof the MBI holders can shed some light on the actual requirements

Edited February 27, 2018 by kiwi535

[Olaf 3309]

1 hour ago, Gabe79 said:

 

So to clarify what appears to be my misconception... Can I still wrench on my car and have the MBI still apply? I thought there was a criteria that it be regularly serviced by a licensed mechanic, for example...

Yes.

The MBI on my vehicle has a requirement of an annual service.  To gain a stamp in the book, the stuff you'd expect to be checked/maintained/replaced annually (or 15,000kms whichever is first) are checked/maintained/replaced.  You're not prevented from doing this stuff yourself; for example if you've done a cooling system service, when the agent checks the system, checks the antifreeze, and does a pressure test - it'll pass.  They are supposed to do an oil change and filter.  Check all belts, replace if necessary.  etc etc.

The stamp on the service book comes from 'any recognised service facility'.  In the event of any claim, this information (the stamps, and invoices indicating the servicing performed) will be required by the insurer.

It's pretty straightforward.  It's less "hands off, spend up largee", more "we need to be sure your vehicle is serviced regularly".

HTH

[GorGasm 563]

As Olaf says.  You can wrench all you like on it, but you still have to get the book stamped by a mechanic, usually MTA approved.

Regular maintenance is not going to protect you the same as an MBI policy.  When the trans had a minor fault on my E500 where it would get stuck in a gear requiring an off/on cycle to come back it cost $7000, $5000 of which was the part from MB Germany.  You can't maintain your way out of issues like that.  There are all sorts of dumb parts on Euros that have retarded prices.  Some examples I can think of are M5 VANOS solenoids, at $1300 each and theres 4.  DSC pump on E87 130i, $2000.  Anything SMG...

Most of the times I have had MBI I haven't realized the value of it, but the one $7000 fault in the E500 is more than the cost of all the MBIs I have ever purchased.

 

[Gabe79 410]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

Yes.

The MBI on my vehicle has a requirement of an annual service.  To gain a stamp in the book, the stuff you'd expect to be checked/maintained/replaced annually (or 15,000kms whichever is first) are checked/maintained/replaced.  You're not prevented from doing this stuff yourself; for example if you've done a cooling system service, when the agent checks the system, checks the antifreeze, and does a pressure test - it'll pass.  They are supposed to do an oil change and filter.  Check all belts, replace if necessary.  etc etc.

The stamp on the service book comes from 'any recognised service facility'.  In the event of any claim, this information (the stamps, and invoices indicating the servicing performed) will be required by the insurer.

It's pretty straightforward.  It's less "hands off, spend up largee", more "we need to be sure your vehicle is serviced regularly".

HTH

Thank you for clarifying that. I do have a good friend who's MTA certified and runs his own shop. I should be able to work something out with him for stamps if I go that route.

17 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

As Olaf says.  You can wrench all you like on it, but you still have to get the book stamped by a mechanic, usually MTA approved.

Regular maintenance is not going to protect you the same as an MBI policy.  When the trans had a minor fault on my E500 where it would get stuck in a gear requiring an off/on cycle to come back it cost $7000, $5000 of which was the part from MB Germany.  You can't maintain your way out of issues like that.  There are all sorts of dumb parts on Euros that have retarded prices.  Some examples I can think of are M5 VANOS solenoids, at $1300 each and theres 4.  DSC pump on E87 130i, $2000.  Anything SMG...

Most of the times I have had MBI I haven't realized the value of it, but the one $7000 fault in the E500 is more than the cost of all the MBIs I have ever purchased.

 

Thank you for your perspective. I agree that whilst things may not pay off all the time, the long tail sometimes catches up and years of 'wasted' insurance can pay for itself in a day...

[*rUstY_nUts* 9]

The MBI Company will also require copies of service invoices if a claim is made and these must be GST invoices with labour, parts and and sundries itemized . Doing anything dodgy to make a claim can also result in a fraud prosecution

[coop 261]

23 hours ago, 3pedals said:

 

If you genuinely do preventative maintenance then an MBI is of no value.

I don't think this is true for the majority of high end Euros, or high end cars from any manufacturer. 

You can service them all you want, it won't stop, to name a few...

BMW SMG failure

Mercedes M156 head bolts, cam shafts & followers failing 

Mercedes 7G auto failure 

Mercedes M272 balancer shaft failure

VAG DSG issues

Land Rover/Range Rover TDV8 twin turbo failure and 5.0 V8 timing chain failure. 

 

All of these issues can cost 50-100% of the value of the vehicle to repair which will send a lot of owners broke if not covered by a comprehensive warranty/insurance. 

 

I was close to buying an M156 powered Mercedes - ML63 or E63 and knew about the head bolt issue - rang Autohaus in Auckland to see what I need to budget for head bolt replacement as preventative maintenance. I was then told about how the camshafts chew up as early as 80k and to budget at least $14k to do the whole lot... And there has been no fix for this issue so will need to do it again further down the track.

E60 M5 documented expensive failures have put me off one of them and I thought the E63 will be the next best thing but I'll just stick to two wheels for my speed fix.

 

To the OP, E65s can be had so cheap, is it worth bothering with a warranty and having to spent considerable dollars on servicing and repairs through an authorised garage for the off chance something catastrophic does go wrong?

 

A little off topic, what is the go with referring to working on a car as 'wrenching'. Some blokes been reading too many yank forums? Ten years as a diesel mech across Australia and NZ and Ive never heard anyone refer to it as that. Do y'all grab your wrenches outa the trunk before you pop the hood?