Front suspension clunking more than expected ?

[jon dee 500]

2008 335i Msport E92 Coupe 85,000km new BM owner.
I noticed while just toddling around the suburbs over typical Wellington uneven road surfaces, that the front suspension seems to "clunk" a bit more than I would have expected a BM to clunk :) I am used to sports oriented suspension in my other cars and they kind of "bump" when running over small irregularities in the road surface. But the BM sounds more like it has worn bushes that are allowing more mevement than they should.

Q1. Is this typically a thing with BM's at around 85,000 km ?

I have also noticed when hitting a bit of broken surface in a corner at highway speed the front wheels seem to skitter like the shocks were having trouble keeping the tyres in contact with the road surface.

Q2. Again, is this a sign that the OEM shocks are up for replacement ?

Maybe the two issues are connected ? If they are, would a set of Bilstein OEM spec replacement shocks be a decent solution ? This is a road car that may see the odd street sprint or hillclimb. All suggestions welcome.

Cheers... jondee

Edited June 28, 2019 by jon dee
Typo's

[Olaf 3317]

Best idea - take it to jon mechaniker at Auto 38 in Newtown.  He’s a BMW specialist, he’ll diagnose it and provide a quality repair.  

[Olaf 3317]

Clunk May be your lower control arm bushes...

shocks may be wearing...

end links

arb bushes

best get it up on the rack to check it out.

[jon dee 500]

Olaf... good suggestion I need someone who knows how to diagnose stuff rather than just throw new parts at the car and hope that something works. I'll give Jon a ring on Monday and see if I can book a time to get the car up on their hoist.

Browsing the interwebs I read that there are a bunch of rubber bushings under the car that can cause problems. And the strut top mounts may also need looking at... as well as the shocks. Going to have to open a savings account for this car !!!

Cheers... jondee

[Jacko 2154]

Most of the front suspension parts are pretty cheap to be fair, jack it up, have a yank around. The front suspension is pretty simple (back ends complex) so its likely something very obvious and not requiring a rocket surgeon to diagnose. 

[viskop 99]

1 hour ago, jon dee said:

Olaf... good suggestion I need someone who knows how to diagnose stuff rather than just throw new parts at the car and hope that something works. I'll give Jon a ring on Monday and see if I can book a time to get the car up on their hoist.

Browsing the interwebs I read that there are a bunch of rubber bushings under the car that can cause problems. And the strut top mounts may also need looking at... as well as the shocks. Going to have to open a savings account for this car !!!

Cheers... jondee

I'm there with @Olaf as my E46 330i also has the same clunking sounds. After the last WOF (Dec 2018) at VTNZ it was  confirmed, both front arm bushes need to be replaced before the next WOF. So I basically have 5 months left to have it sorted.

[jon dee 500]

@ Jacko 

Problem is that where I have this car stored there is barely room to open the door wide enough to get into the drivers seat. So not an ideal situation for getting under and inspecting the suspension. For what it is likely to cost I'm happy to pay someone with a hoist and knowledge to do the diagnosis. When I have an idae of what needs to be done I will decide if I want to buy the parts and do the job myself, or pay a garage to do the work.

I change springs and shocks etc on my Corolla, but that is a smaller car and those parts are easy to access. There is a lot more stuff packed under the hood on the BM !!!

Cheers... jondee

Edited June 28, 2019 by jon dee

[Olaf 3317]

43 minutes ago, jon dee said:

For what it is likely to cost I'm happy to pay someone with a hoist and knowledge to do the diagnosis. When I have an idae of what needs to be done I will decide if I want to buy the parts and do the job myself, or pay a garage to do the work.

I change springs and shocks etc on my Corolla, but that is a smaller car and those parts are easy to access. There is a lot more stuff packed under the hood on the BM !!!

Jon's your man.  He's race car scrutineer, part of the BMW Community, reliable and trustworthy. 

Most of the BMW suspension parts - particularly at e9x - are made of alloy.  You're right, it can be tight.  I've replaced all front suspension on e46 on a driveway... but these days I prefer on a hoist, and I'm happy to pay.

If the LCA rear bushes are worn, chances are your endlinks are in similar condition.  My e46 seems to run about 80k kms before they need replacing again.

HTH

[jon dee 500]

Got a new WOF last week from my usual garage and the only comment made was that the front pads are getting low. I had a look, measured the discs and they probably have another 20km in them. But I have ordered some HPS pads and will get some new front rotors organised so that I have everything I need on hand when the time comes. The rear pads and rotors were changed about siz months ago.

I'm starting to think that the "clunking" is just what you get with low profile tyres and stiffer suspension. I can live with it, and will get a proper check done the next time the car is in for a service.

Cheers... jondee

[Olaf 3317]

You can rationalise it if you wish.  The best approach is to get it inspected.  

You know a clunking is not supposed to be there.

What are you waiting for?  It's going to get worse, not better.  You'll be putting more stress on other components with the play that's making the clunk.

[str8_6 275]

My 335i coupe doesn’t clunk or rattle over anything. Only annoying noise is the buzz from the centre console sometimes on the coarse chip roads. Otherwise, very compliant and quiet, even on msport suspension and low profile tires. 

Also highly recommend Jon at Auto38. If you have to take your car somewhere for diagnostic work and you don’t have space or time, he is the guy! A lot of other places will simply throw parts to try and remediate. Jon will walk you through what’s wrong and what is likely to go wrong in the future if he sees other issues.  

Edited July 19, 2019 by str8_6

[jon dee 500]

OK... perhaps I should not have used "clunking" to describe what I was refering to. Both my other cars have sports type suspension and both make the same basic sound when hitting manhole covers and other similar sharp edged bumps in the road. I guess you could say it is a sort of "thump" sound... not a klank, klunk or klink. If I was to sit in the car and someone else was to give a front tyre a decent whack on the tread wiith a tyre iron, it would make the same sound... as much felt as heard.

This is not the sound of something loose; it is the sound of something solid transmitting a sudden impact into the chassis. So the only thing unusual is that I expected a high end vehicle (albeit used) to be better insulated from the sound of tyre impacts. Perhaps it is just a minor downside to the sports suspension package ?

From my forum reading I see that there are a variety of rubber bushes and insulators in the car that may be showing signs of wear. These could be contributing to increased noise transmission to the interior, and In due course I will be checking and replacing these if needed. It has been suggested that upgrading the front suspension with M-Sport components to get a little more camber is a worthwhile investment. If I go down that route it would be the perfect opportunity to replace all the front end bushes and insulators

Cheers... jondee

[jon dee 500]

@ str8_6

I did try calling Auto 38 a couple of times but no-one picked up and I had to leave messages that weren't returned. So I called in when I was passing (not driving the BM at the time) and spoke to the woman in charge. Jon was under the hood of a vintage BM racecar at the far end of the garage and the lady explained that he was very busy and could not look at my car or do a WOF check until Thursday (this was on Monday). Apparently Auto 38 take their cars down the road for VTNZ for WOF testing in any event. So to keep life simple I went to my usual workshop for the WOF.

From what I could see, Auto 38 had a workshop full of cars with only one person working on them. If that is the case, then Jon will be very busy !! Because I live way on the other side of town it takes a bit of organising to drop my car off and then return the next day or even a few hours later to pick it up. Therefore I shall probably wait until I actually need some work done/parts installed/whatever to book the car in. Then it can stay there for as long as it takes, and the full check and diagnosis can be done at the same time.

Maybe you should go for a drive in my car and see how it compares to yours

Cheers... jondee

[Herbmiester 923]

Jon. The e90 92 cars front end is not complicated, any suspension specialist will be able to dianose it. As mentioned in an earlier post perhaps you might want to consider M3 control arms up front, not only do you get new bushes but better front end geometry.  FWIW E90 front end is completely different to E46.

[jon dee 500]

Yussss... I have those M3 kits you suggested on my wish list. Only problem is that I have a bit of an overspend situation at the moment, and the NZ$ to US$ exchange rate is terrible right now. I actually found a euro car specialist workshop in Lower Hutt and I am going to see if I can book a time to have them put the car on a hoist and check out the front end just for peace of mind. I've got the 17" wheels up for sale as I have bought another set of E92 189 wheels. Anything wider will have to wait until I really need it

Cheers... jondee

[Eagle 1662]

 Cant blame the exchange rate as its been practically the same since mid '15.

[jon dee 500]

Don't doubt that for a minute but it has been 5 years or so since I last bought US$ and from memory they sat in the 0.80 to 0.85 range back then. Now around 0.60 and with the crazy cost of postage/shipping from the US to NZ plus GST and border costs you don't have to buy much of anything before you have spent a thousand bux. !!!!

Doesn't mean I don't buy stuff from the USA as they usually have the best selection and best prices for genuine big brand goods. But I am careful to shop around for the best deal inclusive of shipping before placing an order. Amazon can be quite helpful sometimes

Cheers... jondee

[Olaf 3317]

On 6/28/2019 at 4:26 PM, jon dee said:

2008 335i Msport E92 Coupe 85,000km new BM owner.
I noticed while just toddling around the suburbs over typical Wellington uneven road surfaces, that the front suspension seems to "clunk" a bit more than I would have expected a BM to clunk I am used to sports oriented suspension in my other cars and they kind of "bump" when running over small irregularities in the road surface. But the BM sounds more like it has worn bushes that are allowing more mevement than they should.

 

21 hours ago, jon dee said:

OK... perhaps I should not have used "clunking" to describe what I was refering to. Both my other cars have sports type suspension and both make the same basic sound when hitting manhole covers and other similar sharp edged bumps in the road. I guess you could say it is a sort of "thump" sound... not a klank, klunk or klink. If I was to sit in the car and someone else was to give a front tyre a decent whack on the tread wiith a tyre iron, it would make the same sound... as much felt as heard.

This is not the sound of something loose; it is the sound of something solid transmitting a sudden impact into the chassis. So the only thing unusual is that I expected a high end vehicle (albeit used) to be better insulated from the sound of tyre impacts. Perhaps it is just a minor downside to the sports suspension package ?

So it's a clunk, different to all of your other cars.  But wait.  It's not a clunk, it sounds the same as your other cars.  You'll appreciate we can only go off of what you've said, and it seems your story is changing.  You thought you've got worn bushes, but now you don't.  Fair enough. 

 

20 hours ago, jon dee said:

From what I could see, Auto 38 had a workshop full of cars with only one person working on them. If that is the case, then Jon will be very busy !! Because I live way on the other side of town it takes a bit of organising to drop my car off and then return the next day or even a few hours later to pick it up. Therefore I shall probably wait until I actually need some work done/parts installed/whatever to book the car in. Then it can stay there for as long as it takes, and the full check and diagnosis can be done at the same time.

Yes, you normally need to make an appointment to see Auto 38.  Or the BMW Dealership.  Or even your dentist or surgeon.   Most successful business owners try to maintain a pipeline, and ensure they're engaged in billable work for most of the time.  Can't blame you for chancing it elsewhere in the name of convenience.

Cheers

[Olaf 3317]

Hey, it could be that someone has previously installed poly bushes, and this is what you're experiencing?

[Eagle 1662]

13 hours ago, jon dee said:

Don't doubt that for a minute but it has been 5 years or so since I last bought US$ and from memory they sat in the 0.80 to 0.85 range back then. Now around 0.60 and with the crazy cost of postage/shipping from the US to NZ plus GST and border costs you don't have to buy much of anything before you have spent a thousand bux. !!!!

Doesn't mean I don't buy stuff from the USA as they usually have the best selection and best prices for genuine big brand goods. But I am careful to shop around for the best deal inclusive of shipping before placing an order. Amazon can be quite helpful sometimes

Cheers... jondee

Right. I just done for GST for the first time in awhile since 2x separate packages under $375 came at the same time so they decided to do me. I dont mind paying GST but its all other BS fees they tack on that piss me off. Yeah Amazon can be good and using Fedex, USPS etc, even though they ain't cheap they are far better than going thru f**king NZ post which you now have to jump thru so many hoops just to get your package its ridiculous. They have certainly teamed up with customs these days to increase their Youshop profits.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Eagle

[Jacko 2154]

You could solve all this with a jack and a jiggle stick. 

[jon dee 500]

Good comments... all of them

Perhaps, I should have emphasised the fact that although I have driven hundreds of thousands of kilometres in assorted Japanese cars over the years, I had never driven a BM or even a Merc prior to buying this car. Neither had I driven a car with 35 and 40 series tyres,  so I had no reference to help me establish what was normal.

Now, thanks to the responses received, I am reasonably certain that there is no real problem beyond the typical wear and tear that can be expected after 85,000 km. I will do some further checking myself and get a professional inspection of the suspension when that can be arranged. There is a lot to be learned about this car, and you can expect me to ask a few more (possibly dumb) questions as I come to grips with it.

Thanks for the help so far.

Cheers... jondee

[Herbmiester 923]

FWIW My 2007 e92 has 90k on the clock and the rear arms were a bit worn but the front end was pretty good. 

[jon dee 500]

When I got my Corolla one of the first things I did was install a complete set of TRD rubber suspension bushes, followed shortly after by lowering springs and short stroke shocks. I like to know that those things are new even if the car is old. With this car the plan is to replace as many wearing parts as the budget allows, but not to mess with springs or shocks as I like the way the car rides now.

When your message arrived I was just ordering front wheel bearings. Found some at a pretty good price so I thought I would grab them so they would be on hand when the rotors are due for replacing. Will be looking at the M-Series arms next.

Cheers... jondee

[jon dee 500]

OK, so bit of an update. Apart from the bumping / clunking /whatever issue, there was a bit of that waaa.... waaa... waaa... waaa... sound that varies with wheel speed coming from the front. It was more noticeable at low speed and when slowing to a stop, and I was picking probably a wheel bearing on the way out. But reading a lot of posts on many different forums indicated that sometimes a tyre can cause this kind of noise.

So off came the front wheels (Goodyear 235/40-18XL assymetric tyres 50% worn) and on went the front wheels from my new set (Neuton 225/40-18 directional tyres 20% worn). Went for a drive and dang me... not only did the waaa... waaa... noise disappear, but the tyre thumping over road surface irregularities was also considerably reduced !!! The ride and noise level is now pretty much in line with what I expected from a BMW

I have never never owned a car that used anything lower that 55-series tyres, so had no experience with 35 and 40 series tyres to guide me. With such short sidewalls the tyres cannot absorb much bump energy which means that the suspension does more work. The upside is much crisper handling and I'm all for that.

Looking at the Goodyear tyres, they are XL rated which I gather means that they are stiffer to handle Xtra Load. They are also assymetric AND directional, which as I understand it means that they come with 1 x RH and 1 x LH tyre to make an axle pair. However, it looks like the tyre shop mounted two identical tyres which means that one was rotating in the wrong direction. I think the combination of a heavier tyre and greater wear caused the thumping and the incorrect mounting and/or tread wear contributed the extra noise.

Cheers... jondee86

"The only reason I make mistakes is so that I can learn from them...".