Out of Lockdown but back into the shop

[nzpanda92 16]

So was driving on the motorway heading to an important client meeting when suddenly I got the old limp mode engine malfunction. Managed to get off the motorway luckily. As I applied the brakes at the intersection, the DSC error also came up on the dash. Staggered up the hill of the road and pulled off to a side road. Got on the phone to Autosure who arranged to have it towed to the closest authorized euro mechanic - although I opted to pay the extra $2/km to have it towed to my current mechs (Continental Wairau). Will post back here once we know whats wrong with it.

[aja540i 1906]

Throttle actuator? The M5 did something similar when one of its died, not sure if the V8 ones are a common fault or not but the V10 ones definitely are.

[nzpanda92 16]

8 minutes ago, aja540i said:

Throttle actuator? The M5 did something similar when one of its died, not sure if the V8 ones are a common fault or not but the V10 ones definitely are.

Yeah perhaps! I got the confirmation from Continental that my car got there and they'll check it out in the morning. Another friend of mine mentioned it could possibly be a wheel speed sensor. Im intrigued to find out - literally drove perfectly on the way to my office - 20km from home. Eitherway, hopefully its covered under Autosure (fingers crossed).

[qube 3570]

Hope it gets sorted easily. Glad u managed to get it off the highway safely. Its always a bit of a scare when car suddenly dies on the road. 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

1 hour ago, nzpanda92 said:

Yeah perhaps! I got the confirmation from Continental that my car got there and they'll check it out in the morning. Another friend of mine mentioned it could possibly be a wheel speed sensor. Im intrigued to find out - literally drove perfectly on the way to my office - 20km from home. Eitherway, hopefully its covered under Autosure (fingers crossed).

Never good! Did the limp mode clear when you turned it off and on? 

Typically a wheel speed sensor failure will cause a DSC code....but I'm not aware of it putting a vehicle into limp mode. 

This kind of reminds me of when I had an alternator failure while driving. In a 'basic vehicle' you'd get a battery light and it's fairly obvious. In my E46 modules started to throw error codes one after another and exactly like you, when I pressed the breaks the DSC fault came up.

Do let us know how you get on! 

 

 

[nzpanda92 16]

48 minutes ago, HalfJobHarry said:

Never good! Did the limp mode clear when you turned it off and on? 

Typically a wheel speed sensor failure will cause a DSC code....but I'm not aware of it putting a vehicle into limp mode. 

This kind of reminds me of when I had an alternator failure while driving. In a 'basic vehicle' you'd get a battery light and it's fairly obvious. In my E46 modules started to throw error codes one after another and exactly like you, when I pressed the breaks the DSC fault came up.

Do let us know how you get on! 

 

 

Actually, come to think of it - you make an interesting point RE: alternator... I had a few days ago a warning come up - something about high drain of the battery? I've had that show up maybe 3 times since we went into Level 4 lock down in March.. Comes right after I drive it for a bit. Other than that, doesn't show up unless its been sitting for a few days without driving anywhere.. Perhaps it could be like you say - literally when i braked, the DSC fault came up.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

2 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

Actually, come to think of it - you make an interesting point RE: alternator... I had a few days ago a warning come up - something about high drain of the battery? I've had that show up maybe 3 times since we went into Level 4 lock down in March.. Comes right after I drive it for a bit. Other than that, doesn't show up unless its been sitting for a few days without driving anywhere.. Perhaps it could be like you say - literally when i braked, the DSC fault came up.

Also lockdown driving patterns are quite battery intensive too..lots of starts and short journeys, not much distance driving. It's tough on batteries and if the alternator is past it's best/failing it could all add up. 

My alternator didn't just die suddenly one day either...it gradually got worse over a few months (presumably as the brushes finally wore out)...I just didn't see the signs looking back as all of these 'random' module failures came up as I was driving. 

 

 

[Olaf 3321]

9 hours ago, nzpanda92 said:

Actually, come to think of it - you make an interesting point RE: alternator... I had a few days ago a warning come up - something about high drain of the battery? I've had that show up maybe 3 times since we went into Level 4 lock down in March.. Comes right after I drive it for a bit. Other than that, doesn't show up unless its been sitting for a few days without driving anywhere.. Perhaps it could be like you say - literally when i braked, the DSC fault came up.

These cars are very power hungry, and not tolerant of a battery anything less than fully grunty.  Low battery causes all kinds of unusual faults.  There's also the IBS cable which is subject to recall in other markets, but not recognised by BMW New Zealand.  The newer IBS cable has some different connectors.  I chased a number of shitty faults and no-start conditions, until replacing the IBS cables, and later, the battery (despite it testing fine a few times) with a high capacity unit.  

[nzpanda92 16]

Update

Continental came back to me saying that after testing, they found the throttle potentiometer faults stored, and requires the plug and loom replaced as first measure. Autosure are covering the cost (with me covering the excess of $350). They have the parts and it will be ready for collection tomorrow at lunchtime. 

[HalfJobHarry 106]

1 hour ago, nzpanda92 said:

Update

Continental came back to me saying that after testing, they found the throttle potentiometer faults stored, and requires the plug and loom replaced as first measure. Autosure are covering the cost (with me covering the excess of $350). They have the parts and it will be ready for collection tomorrow at lunchtime. 

Interesting...what of the DSC fault code? 

The throttle pot positions can be easily seen with a scan tool, presumably they confirmed the failure rather than just going with the logged fault code? I'd imagine/hope this to be the case if they are recommending a replacement TPS + loom. I don't know the ins and outs of the 5 series but the TPS wiring is typically on one of the DME looms, so quite a few places to run that back to and things to plug into. 

It's interesting to me that you could have a DSC fault and have to pull over in limp mode and only have a TPS code logged in the DME. These kinds of events usually come with a truck load of logged faults...

(Autosure question..... is that excess per 'breakdown' or if you need additional things fixing as the problem is not cured will you need to pay additional excess?) 

Edited September 1, 2020 by HalfJobHarry

[nzpanda92 16]

1 hour ago, HalfJobHarry said:

Interesting...what of the DSC fault code? 

The throttle pot positions can be easily seen with a scan tool, presumably they confirmed the failure rather than just going with the logged fault code? I'd imagine/hope this to be the case if they are recommending a replacement TPS + loom. I don't know the ins and outs of the 5 series but the TPS wiring is typically on one of the DME looms, so quite a few places to run that back to and things to plug into. 

It's interesting to me that you could have a DSC fault and have to pull over in limp mode and only have a TPS code logged in the DME. These kinds of events usually come with a truck load of logged faults...

(Autosure question..... is that excess per 'breakdown' or if you need additional things fixing as the problem is not cured will you need to pay additional excess?) 

I queried the DSC fault just now and got the reply of "No faults for DSC - once carrying out the repair cable replacement, we need to recheck for further issues". Sounds complicated and guess work to find the right place. 

I too found it strange - literally going 100km/h on the motorway, then it went to reduced power (80km/h max). Pulled off at the offramp to a set of traffic lights - as I applied brake, DSC failure came on and slowed it even more to 20km/h (admitedly, I was going up a bit of an incline - for those familiar with Auckland, the Point Chevalier hill coming up from the North Western city bound).

I am not entirely sure in regards to Autosure whether this is just for this particular fault or the entire repair if this doesn't fix it. Continental were actually the ones who told me Autosure were covering it.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

25 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

I queried the DSC fault just now and got the reply of "No faults for DSC - once carrying out the repair cable replacement, we need to recheck for further issues". Sounds complicated and guess work to find the right place. 

I too found it strange - literally going 100km/h on the motorway, then it went to reduced power (80km/h max). Pulled off at the offramp to a set of traffic lights - as I applied brake, DSC failure came on and slowed it even more to 20km/h (admitedly, I was going up a bit of an incline - for those familiar with Auckland, the Point Chevalier hill coming up from the North Western city bound).

I am not entirely sure in regards to Autosure whether this is just for this particular fault or the entire repair if this doesn't fix it. Continental were actually the ones who told me Autosure were covering it.

Thing about the TPS is , it's possible to positively identify an issue by testing, including if the issue is with the TPS or the throttle. It's really interesting that at this stage the focus is on changing the plug and the loom.....

I'd be having the conversation with Autosure at this point to check if it's going to be a $350 excess for every potentially speculative repair that gets done......

 

 

[nzpanda92 16]

1 hour ago, F10er said:

This was quite a common issue with the N62 going back about 10 years or so from memory. I think there was actually a technical bulletin for it, which is possibly why they are replacing the connector. Might be able to google it?? Can't remember excactly, but it was something about the crimps on the pins, causing a poor connection at the throttle valve potentiometer. The DSC light probably came on as it uses the throttle valve to modulate the engine power in a DSC intervention i think.

hey thats interesting - I'll do a bit of a google and see what I can dig up. 

[F10er 65]

1 hour ago, nzpanda92 said:

hey thats interesting - I'll do a bit of a google and see what I can dig up. 

Found it on a North American site.

 

MC-10148166-9999.pdf

Edited September 1, 2020 by F10er

[HalfJobHarry 106]

How did it go? 

[nzpanda92 16]

Well it turns out yes it was the TPS wiring harness. All sorted now - although I’m surprised they never mentioned anything about the high battery drain. As I left the shop, that message came up. 

[Gaz 1061]

With Autosure or any mechanical warranty, you'll find the phrase 'one excess for each and every unrelated claim 

[nzpanda92 16]

2 hours ago, F10er said:

If i were you i would get that looked at. These cars are very sensitive to voltage issues and it will more than likely cause you further issues if you just leave it. It probably just needs a new battery, but best to get it checked by testing the battery and doing an "energy diagnosis"

Good call - where’s the best place to buy a new battery for them from? Is there a way to test the voltage of the battery while it’s running using the iDrive system or would I need to get my multimeter out? Do you know what sort of voltage I should be expecting while it’s running vs when stationary?

 

 

[nzpanda92 16]

1 hour ago, Gaz said:

With Autosure or any mechanical warranty, you'll find the phrase 'one excess for each and every unrelated claim 

Hmmm yeah okay - I actually thought my excess was something like $600 but in this instance it was only $350.

Just for my understanding - do you think it’s each and every unrelated claim to the incident, or to every repair they did ie: first doing the wiring harness to then work out it wasn’t that and perhaps was say the alternator? Would it be my problem if it was diagnosed incorrectly? 

[Olaf 3321]

7 hours ago, nzpanda92 said:

Good call - where’s the best place to buy a new battery for them from? Is there a way to test the voltage of the battery while it’s running using the iDrive system or would I need to get my multimeter out? Do you know what sort of voltage I should be expecting while it’s running vs when stationary?

Buy from your BMW Dealer (the BMW batteries do seem to last forever), or from a good Independent BMW specialist.  Essential you get the coding and registration done, telling the DME is has a new battery, type (AGM), capacity... as it alters the charging charateristics with age.  Most battery shops will shy away from that voodoo, and your new battery won't last.  If you have a choice, go for the higher capacity (Ampere Hours). 

Mine's rocking a Koda, it seems very good.  I've stopped using AA Battery service, 'king hopeless round here. YMMV.

HTH

[Gaz 1061]

8 hours ago, nzpanda92 said:

Hmmm yeah okay - I actually thought my excess was something like $600 but in this instance it was only $350.

Just for my understanding - do you think it’s each and every unrelated claim to the incident, or to every repair they did ie: first doing the wiring harness to then work out it wasn’t that and perhaps was say the alternator? Would it be my problem if it was diagnosed incorrectly? 

Should all be related therefore same claim, if it needs more then no further payment. The technical bulletin should say, do this first, if fault continues do this which will help

[GorGasm 563]

High drain might be nothing.  Just check if it comes back.

Unplug the IBS cable first if it does.

[HalfJobHarry 106]

11 hours ago, nzpanda92 said:

Hmmm yeah okay - I actually thought my excess was something like $600 but in this instance it was only $350.

Just for my understanding - do you think it’s each and every unrelated claim to the incident, or to every repair they did ie: first doing the wiring harness to then work out it wasn’t that and perhaps was say the alternator? Would it be my problem if it was diagnosed incorrectly? 

This is why for me personally it's important to feel or be demonstrated that the 'root cause' of the issue has been located and fixed. If something almost exactly the same happens to you next week, it may well be the true root cause of the issue that was not located and you'll be on the hook for another $350 unfortunately, as it's going to be very hard to relate them together as at this point the issue is considered closed. 

Regarding batteries, my previous dealer replacement batteries have been Exide AGM batteries of the exact same capacity. I'd feel comfortable self replacing with Exide or Century. However as other have mentioned it is VITAL if you do change the chemistry or capacity (I really wouldn't suggest moving from AGM to a wet battery through!) that you 'recode' the DME to understand the new capacity. Battery coding is not complicated (INPA and ISTA-D cand do it), also most scan tools that the Indys have can do this easily (but it's one of those 2 minute easy jobs they like to charge about $90 for!).  

EDIT: I also understand that Carly can do it, perhaps if you change it yourself another member locally with Carly might oblige?

Edited September 3, 2020 by HalfJobHarry
Carly info.

[nzpanda92 16]

14 hours ago, Olaf said:

Buy from your BMW Dealer (the BMW batteries do seem to last forever), or from a good Independent BMW specialist.  Essential you get the coding and registration done, telling the DME is has a new battery, type (AGM), capacity... as it alters the charging charateristics with age.  Most battery shops will shy away from that voodoo, and your new battery won't last.  If you have a choice, go for the higher capacity (Ampere Hours). 

Mine's rocking a Koda, it seems very good.  I've stopped using AA Battery service, 'king hopeless round here. YMMV.

HTH

I've done a bit of reading on it - its very different from the normal jap cars aint it (sorry again as im new to euros!). I was thinking of getting it done properly because I did read somewhere there was a particular way of installing it so to not lose some kind of memory or code? Maybe I read wrong. Why exactly do you need to tell the DME that the battery has changed? Why does the car need to know that out of curiosity?

 

14 hours ago, Gaz said:

Should all be related therefore same claim, if it needs more then no further payment. The technical bulletin should say, do this first, if fault continues do this which will help

I did read that on that bulletin that you posted thank you - i noticed it said not to change the body and do the wiring harness first.. So far, so good and nothing is out of the ordinary but they didnt really give me a report of what they did other than on the receipt saying "throttle body repair loom"

 

14 hours ago, GorGasm said:

High drain might be nothing.  Just check if it comes back.

Unplug the IBS cable first if it does.

so far, no message since ive given it a drive around or so. will keep an eye on it. I am assuming the IBS is the cable connected to the battery in the boot?

 

11 hours ago, HalfJobHarry said:

This is why for me personally it's important to feel or be demonstrated that the 'root cause' of the issue has been located and fixed. If something almost exactly the same happens to you next week, it may well be the true root cause of the issue that was not located and you'll be on the hook for another $350 unfortunately, as it's going to be very hard to relate them together as at this point the issue is considered closed. 

Regarding batteries, my previous dealer replacement batteries have been Exide AGM batteries of the exact same capacity. I'd feel comfortable self replacing with Exide or Century. However as other have mentioned it is VITAL if you do change the chemistry or capacity (I really wouldn't suggest moving from AGM to a wet battery through!) that you 'recode' the DME to understand the new capacity. Battery coding is not complicated (INPA and ISTA-D cand do it), also most scan tools that the Indys have can do this easily (but it's one of those 2 minute easy jobs they like to charge about $90 for!).  

EDIT: I also understand that Carly can do it, perhaps if you change it yourself another member locally with Carly might oblige?

Totally agree with your first point there - I still don't know what happened, what caused it and why it did what it did. I guess if continental deemed it a knock on affect from the previous issue, they could relay that to Autosure? Although I'm sure they wouldn't want to admit they didnt diagnose it correctly to start with.. Its a little bit hard too as the person I am dealing with at Continental is not actually a mechanic but a service consultant..

Interesting RE: battery. I was watching on YouTube a guy who has a similar vehicle (E60) - i think the channel was BMW Doctor and he mentioned it was beneficial that I purchase an ISTA-D setup.. I'm not too savy with car programming although I am knowledgeable in electronics (elec eng here). Would it be helpful to get a setup like that or shall I leave it to the professionals?

[HalfJobHarry 106]

21 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

I've done a bit of reading on it - its very different from the normal jap cars aint it (sorry again as im new to euros!). I was thinking of getting it done properly because I did read somewhere there was a particular way of installing it so to not lose some kind of memory or code? Maybe I read wrong. Why exactly do you need to tell the DME that the battery has changed? Why does the car need to know that out of curiosity?

There is no dark magic. The DME stores two things about the battery that is called the 'coding' by the community. The chemistry of the battery (Wet cell, AGM etc) and the capacity of the battery. The DME is able to control the alternator charging of the battery when the engine is running to charge the battery in an 'intelligent'/appropriate way. The DME monitors the condition of the battery via the IBS (intelligent battery sensor). So what you have is a 'closed loop' of battery health monitoring and charging. This is a stark contrast to the way other vehicles did / do their charging, no intelligence to it at all, when the engine is running the alternator charges at a charging voltage and that's that. 

The issue becomes if you change the battery chemistry and/or capacity, the DME has no way of knowing and will maintain the battery in a way that could likely be detrimental. Also the DME has tables that says things like "if battery capacity 90 AH and voltage 12.3v then it's 40% full" ..."if capacity 70 AH and voltage 12.3 then it's 50% full" or whatever (These are not accurate examples). If it doesn't know the capacity of the battery actually fitted then it cannot truly know the charge state, this can lead to over or under charging of the battery.  

 

21 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

 

so far, no message since ive given it a drive around or so. will keep an eye on it. I am assuming the IBS is the cable connected to the battery in the boot?

Yes. The IBS is the thingy connected to the battery in the boot. It has special data line (Bit Serial Data) to the DME 

Here is a good tech description of the system if you like that kind of thing (I do): https://bimmerscan.com/bmw-intelligent-battery-sensor-ibs/

 

21 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

 

Totally agree with your first point there - I still don't know what happened, what caused it and why it did what it did. I guess if continental deemed it a knock on affect from the previous issue, they could relay that to Autosure? Although I'm sure they wouldn't want to admit they didnt diagnose it correctly to start with.. Its a little bit hard too as the person I am dealing with at Continental is not actually a mechanic but a service consultant..

Possibly tricky situation for them, as if the original issue wasn't cured by the repairs, then they may be faced with defending unnecessary repairs/charges. Much tidier for everybody (except your wallet) if you have a new claim and pay a new excess, that way the flood gates of funding open again without question.  

21 minutes ago, nzpanda92 said:

Interesting RE: battery. I was watching on YouTube a guy who has a similar vehicle (E60) - i think the channel was BMW Doctor and he mentioned it was beneficial that I purchase an ISTA-D setup.. I'm not too savy with car programming although I am knowledgeable in electronics (elec eng here). Would it be helpful to get a setup like that or shall I leave it to the professionals?

ISTA-D is what the BMW dealers use (or used)  for guided diagnostics. The software isn't / wasn't supposed to be available beyond authorized dealers AFAIK, hence don't buy anything from anybody offering ISTA-D "setups". 

It's always beneficial to have the ability to understand what your BMWs modules are telling you or what possible faults may exist. This gives you a good base from which to start conversations and guide your next actions. I often do this before making a decision on how to proceed or what guidance to seek. That's not to say that you will always (or ever) take action yourself to rectify any issues. Getting setup to perform basic diagnostics is usually going to cost you little more than buying the appropriate cable and having access to a decent laptop.