E87 Vs e91

[mzhu031 38]

I recently bought a low k e91 325i, it's a non Motorsport. I ve now driven about 5000ks in it and it is very interesting compared to my e87 130i Motorsport. 

To me, it seems like the non Motorsport steering is more accurate ( is that because it's not variable ratio?). The suspension works well with the run flats (16 inch) and it's supple and reasonably firm around the corners. In contrast the 130i is brittle and imho isn't as nicely set up. Both cars are stock, the 130i has newish factory replacement shocks (Sachs) and m3 LCAs. 

 

I wonder if anyone has felt the same? Or am I up a tree? 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by mzhu031
Spelling

[Cammsport 390]

I dislike the urban driving in our E91 msport. Crashy, rough and worse than my E30 with high spring rate adjustables. I wince at the sight of uneven surfaces. I assume that's the same as your E87 msport? 

[Jacko 2156]

Looked up the vin for your 130, its standard hydraulic steering not EPS or active, there is no Msport rack, in fact its very likely has the exact same rack as your E91  p/n 32106777464

Tyres / Alignment / bad spring/damper rates etc?

I have a 330 and 130, and they are different cars. 130 is way more hyper active and darty, 330i feels more planted and sure footed.130 will leave the 330 for dead on corners and in a straight line.

[qube 3570]

Having owned multiple E91 325i and E87 130i all msport varients, I would say that the E91 definitely feels like a much heavier car with firmer/heavier steering. 

Non msport varients without the sports suspension usually makes the car feel a bit like a boat on corners under any kind of load but would say on normal roads its comfortable enough, especially if running 16/17" wheels.

The 130's steering/suspension is definitely way more "hyper active and darty" as Jacko mentions above. A bit jumpy but I would put that down to the chassis and increased power.

[mzhu031 38]

38 minutes ago, Jacko said:

Looked up the vin for your 130, its standard hydraulic steering not EPS or active, there is no Msport rack, in fact its very likely has the exact same rack as your E91  p/n 32106777464

Tyres / Alignment / bad spring/damper rates etc?

I have a 330 and 130, and they are different cars. 130 is way more hyper active and darty, 330i feels more planted and sure footed.130 will leave the 330 for dead on corners and in a straight line.

Good point. The tyres are new Bridgestone s007s from march. Had an alignment done with about -1 camber at the front, otherwise stock settings. Slightly better after all that. Need to buy the bilstein kit like you have in yours! 

[mzhu031 38]

52 minutes ago, Cammsport said:

I dislike the urban driving in our E91 msport. Crashy, rough and worse than my E30 with high spring rate adjustables. I wince at the sight of uneven surfaces. I assume that's the same as your E87 msport? 

The wincing is real! Totally. 

[KwS 2425]

I believe it was @M3AN that did some research into the suspension on the E87 and noted that they had very little travel before they were running on the bump stop, leading to a crashy ride.

[M3AN 4016]

Yes, the stock 130 motorsport suspension is downright dangerous on b roads at speed IMO, a mid-corner bump when you're leaning on it can shift the back end out disconcertingly. The stock bumpstops, referred to by BMW as an "additional damper" in this application, comes in to play very early, it's far too long. You can either cut a section out of the centre of the stock bumpstops and glue them back together or "upgrade" to BMW Performance bumpstops which are shorter. No aftermarket suspension that I'm aware of has this characteristic.

Steering feel could be a number of things, the weight distribution of the cars, relative to the location of the rack, will be different and it wouldn't surprise me if the 3er had more castor since they have a little more space to play with. How much toe (+/-) are you running up front on the 130?

[Herbmiester 924]

I was keen on a 135i E82 and at the time I owned a 335i E92. My thoughts are that the E82 was more lively but also skittish in the comparison, unless you were on very smooth roads the E82 moved around noticeably more. I found the E82 had less ability to get the power down and was more tail happy, this may not be an issue in a 130i as there is a lot less power and torque to deal with. The E92 was more predictable and easier to drive fast. The E82 was fun but required more input and concentration. Steering wise there wasn't a noticeable difference with turn in being very similar, both had very positive turn in. My test area was Whiteman's Valley in Wellington and the Rimutaka's and in my experience NZ B roads, the fun ones to drive, are often not smooth and you do need some ability to deal with an irregular surface, as such I prefer 18's over 19s as a bit of sidewall (No run Flats) helps here.

Edited October 13, 2021 by Herbmiester

[mzhu031 38]

8 hours ago, M3AN said:

Yes, the stock 130 motorsport suspension is downright dangerous on b roads at speed IMO, a mid-corner bump when you're leaning on it can shift the back end out disconcertingly. The stock bumpstops, referred to by BMW as an "additional damper" in this application, comes in to play very early, it's far too long. You can either cut a section out of the centre of the stock bumpstops and glue them back together or "upgrade" to BMW Performance bumpstops which are shorter. No aftermarket suspension that I'm aware of has this characteristic.

Steering feel could be a number of things, the weight distribution of the cars, relative to the location of the rack, will be different and it wouldn't surprise me if the 3er had more castor since they have a little more space to play with. How much toe (+/-) are you running up front on the 130

[mzhu031 38]

Not as much front camber as I remembered...

[mzhu031 38]

8 hours ago, Herbmiester said:

I was keen on a 135i E82 and at the time I owned a 335i E92. My thoughts are that the E82 was more lively but also skittish in the comparison, unless you were on very smooth roads the E82 moved around noticeably more. I found the E82 had less ability to get the power down and was more tail happy, this may not be an issue in a 130i as there is a lot less power and torque to deal with. The E92 was more predictable and easier to drive fast. The E82 was fun but required more input and concentration. Steering wise there wasn't a noticeable difference with turn in being very similar, both had very positive turn in. My test area was Whiteman's Valley in Wellington and the Rimutaka's and in my experience NZ B roads, the fun ones to drive, are often not smooth and you do need some ability to deal with an irregular surface, as such I prefer 18's over 19s as a bit of sidewall (No run Flats) helps here.

Haha you are right about the power, not that easy to break traction even with the open diff. But man does it like to hop in a corner if it hits a few bumps. 

[M3AN 4016]

57 minutes ago, mzhu031 said:

Not as much front camber as I remembered...

Perhaps a little less than I'd expect with M3 LCA's but nothing that would cause concern, have you done the camber pin mod also?

That front toe is safe but not sharp, it's a very relaxed setting that will allow high speed cruising without too much effort. If you want to sharpen up the feeling, and turn in, at the expense of increased understeer at the apex, then a small amount of front toe out (-ve toe) will make a dramatic difference. Some people hear "understeer" and yell "oh no" but that just means they don't understand. This will only ever come into play when you're tyres are already squealing and only at the very  apex of a turn, a circumstance that can be 100% countered with trail braking, if you ever encounter it in the first place (and you shouldn't on the road because it means you're a hair's breadth, or a small pothole, from the ditch).

Also, make sure you have good tyre pressures, nothing less than 36psi up front (on 18's, probably more on 17's), under-inflation will create a vague feeling.

For reference, and I'm not suggesting this is perfect for everyone, here's an (expensive) corner-balanced alignment on my 130i from Race Align, camber pin mod, M3 control arms, M3 front sway bar (although that matters naught for an alignment) and I love it. Note the front toe (rear toe is also about the minimum required to prevent wander).

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by M3AN

[smiddy 76]

Best bang for buck for my E91, along side 8.5- 9.5 front/ rear wheels was the E92M3 TRW front torsion strut/ lower control arm upgrade.

Once aligned, night and day difference to steering feel and corner turn in.

Edited October 14, 2021 by smiddy
Missed word

[mzhu031 38]

55 minutes ago, M3AN said:

Perhaps a little less than I'd expect with M3 LCA's but nothing that would cause concern, have you done the camber pin mod also?

That front toe is safe but not sharp, it's a very relaxed setting that will allow high speed cruising without too much effort. If you want to sharpen up the feeling, and turn in, at the expense of increased understeer at the apex, then a small amount of front toe out (-ve toe) will make a dramatic difference. Some people hear "understeer" and yell "oh no" but that just means they don't understand. This will only ever come into play when you're tyres are already squealing and only at the very  apex of a turn, a circumstance that can be 100% countered with trail braking, if you ever encounter it in the first place (and you shouldn't on the road because it means you're a hair's breadth, or a small pothole, from the ditch).

Also, make sure you have good tyre pressures, nothing less than 36psi up front (on 18's, probably more on 17's), under-inflation will create a vague feeling.

For reference, and I'm not suggesting this is perfect for everyone, here's an (expensive) corner-balanced alignment on my 130i from Race Align, camber pin mod, M3 control arms, M3 front sway bar (although that matters naught for an alignment) and I love it. Note the front toe (rear toe is also about the minimum required to prevent wander).

 

No haven't done the camber pin mod, doesn't look too hard though will knock them out next weekend. 

Will report back once I try your alignment out! 

 

[M3AN 4016]

16 minutes ago, mzhu031 said:

No haven't done the camber pin mod, doesn't look too hard though will knock them out next weekend.

You may need to drill them out, some are spot welded in place and you can knock them out, others are moulded as part of the top mount and need drilling (mine did). Essentially that's the difference between a 1 minute job and a 5 minute job on each side, assuming you have a good drill and bit.