Engine Oil..Again!

[wtbdeath 4]

This is yet another thread about engine oil, only recently found full synthetic in NZ!

Penrite 10TH looks good, full gourp IV and V blend, perticually the preimum 0w40 , is not tooooo thick BUT the problem is it is only BMW LL-98 approved. but hey it is only $298 / 20 L from repco. When I was at repco, there is no 10TH 0W40 but 0W50, tooooo thick!

Racing oil has too much zinc to my liking and not even BMW LL-98 approved.

Or I could go for redline 5w30 from BNT, which is $28+GST /qt

Or Castrol 0W40 which is a little bit thick but still thinner than penrite 0w40 , at $9x / 5L and they don't stock in bulk

Mobile 1 0W40 is thin enough , at $100/5L , no bulk package.

From paper, Penrite HPR0 looks good, but again, it is not BMW LL-01 approved, only HPR5 is, but tooooo thick.

LL-01 added VANOS compability, otherwise I would risk it using LL-98.

It is a shame cannot get reaonable priced full synthetic and LL-01 approved oil publicly, Maybe I will try trade discount at repco for Mobil 1s

[Michael. 2313]

HPR5 seems to be a pretty well balanced.

They call it a 5W-40 extra ten, so a 5W-30 replacement... whatever that means. I'm no expert.

My Toyotas are 5w-30 from factory and I've always used HPR5 with 5,000rpm intervals

[B.M.W Ltd 950]

Your looking in the wrong recycle bin... I can sell you the correct oil for your car

[wtbdeath 4]

Me ? HPR5 doesn't look good to me, it is too thick, they call it extra ten, it is 5w-30 "replacement" in their sense, but not to me. I know I know, it is meant to run in hot climate, but 20 degrees is not really hot.

[BMTHUG 1059]

personally I buy 205 litres of HPR5 and it is the best all rounder oil. It is also BMW approved and is not too thick at all. I've used a lot of oils,all bought in bulk, 205 litres at a time, mobil1 5w30 full synthetic castrol 5w30 full synthetic as well as Valvoline 5w30 full synthetics but non have compared to HPR5 in any way. Most of them needed topping up from oil burning issues, also under variable valve timing they seemed to hold back the engine a little, HPR5 lasts 10 k and the Variable Valve Timing seems much more responsive in most of the cars I use them in and own ranging from M52 e46's m54 e46's, rb25det neo skylines, honda integra type r and even my VW Golfs

Edited July 1, 2015 by EUROHO

[wtbdeath 4]

personally I buy 205 litres of HPR5 and it is the best all rounder oil. It is also BMW approved and is not too thick at all. I've used a lot of oils,all bought in bulk, 205 litres at a time, mobil1 5w30 full synthetic castrol 5w30 full synthetic as well as Valvoline 5w30 full synthetics but non have compared to HPR5 in any way. Most of them needed topping up from oil burning issues, also under variable valve timing they seemed to hold back the engine a little, HPR5 lasts 10 k and the Variable Valve Timing seems much more responsive in most of the cars I use them in and own ranging from M52 e46's m54 e46's, rb25det neo skylines, honda integra type r and even my VW Golfs

The reason it did not require top up is because it is too thick.

Notice from their spec sheet

Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt

at 100°C 15.0

Mobie 1 0W40 at 100 C is only 12.x and Castrol is around 13.X

I guess the reaon why VANOS holds better is because most of the current second hand cars need the VANOS seals done, a little bit thick oil will fill up the worn seal gaps nicely.

Penrite is designed for AUS but not quite NZ IMO, we are not that hot.

Edited July 1, 2015 by wtbdeath

[BMTHUG 1059]

I really dont mind that its a bit thicker. Wouldnt really hurt IMHO seeing as its worked well for the past 3 years Ive used it. Also my52tub28 underwent a complete rebuild. Including vanos seals and everything. As a mechanic I know these engines and would not leave it to chance

[qube 3570]

gonna take sj's word on this one and use HPR5 next time for my M52B28

[BMTHUG 1059]

gonna take sj's word on this one and use HPR5 next time for my M52B28

My man Kyu. Really nice oil man. Used pretty much everything out there not really worrying about price and this has worked wonders bro

[B.M.W Ltd 950]

We use and I would recommend ELF Evolution Full Tech MSX 5w30

[qube 3570]

there are only so many choices available for the general public consumer. always used castrol edge 5w30 and have considered valvoline but will definitely try the HPR stuff since it can be bought from supercheapautos which is just down the road for me

[Michael. 2313]

I've only bought Penrite stuff since first motoring back in 2005. No issues with their stuff in 10 years.

Aussie gurus I knew always recommended the stuff and it comes across like an honest product without the BS.

[wtbdeath 4]

I hope you all realise none of the oils are full synthetic? They are all group III blends.

[Michael. 2313]

Please tell us more Nick, you sound like an oil guru.

[wtbdeath 4]

Just got back from Penrite support: Premium (full synthetic) 0W-50 has been deletePremium (full synthetic) 0W-50 has been deleted and replaced by Premium (full synthetic) 0W-40.

I might get 20L of these instead...

[wtbdeath 4]

Please tell us more Nick, you sound like an oil guru.

I am no gruru but did a lot of research on this topic.

The "Full synthetic" lable does not mean it is 100% synthetic oil, well, striclly speaking, none of the oil on the market is 100% synthetic as they need to add additives.

But, there are two kinds of "Full synthetic" oil out there:

1. Group III base oil with additives that have synthetic properties ,

2. Group IV or Group IV base oil true synthetic oil

The difference is quite big and easy to understand:

When oils are new, they are almost the same, say 5w30, they all provide same protection layer at operation temperature.

The difference comes in when you put miles on the oil, as BMWs are long drain , typically 250000km, (I change more often than that), oil gets heat, cooled and thinned.

Now, when oil has , say around 10000km, they do not have same chemical property as when they were new, Group III will be thinned, called "shear", which does not provide good protection layers between metals, or , not as good as new protection layers. Lets say HPR 5 have Viscosity 15.0 at 100C, when new, but would be around 10.0 when drained out (NOTE: I do not know what the value will be at the end of the drain interval, it can only be found out if you are doing oil sample anylisys, this is just an assumption)

Group IV or V oils, which are chemically engineered, all oil elements are the same, they don't require too much additives to get to the required viocity, often, it is the additives that get old, poision, and problematic. Which means, at the end of your drain interval, if you have group IV or V based oil, they still provide as good as new stated Viscosity.

From Penrite website, if you look under their full synthetic range, namely racing and premium range, you will see they state that they are SHEAR FREE

Now look at my oringinal post, the oil I posted there are real synthetics, not Group III blends, they are not easy to find, and there are not many of these as they are expensive to make, compare to blends.

Hope it helps and hope we can find reasonable priced oil in NZ.

[KwS 2425]

f**k long life oil intervals. just change it regularly and itll be fine. Something something mountains and molehills.

[Olaf 3322]

This is yet another thread about engine oil, only recently found full synthetic in NZ!

From paper, Penrite HPR0 looks good, but again, it is not BMW LL-01 approved, only HPR5 is, but tooooo thick.

LL-01 added VANOS compability, otherwise I would risk it using LL-98.

It is a shame cannot get reaonable priced full synthetic and LL-01 approved oil publicly, Maybe I will try trade discount at repco for Mobil 1s

HPR5 seems to be a pretty well balanced.

They call it a 5W-40 extra ten, so a 5W-30 replacement... whatever that means. I'm no expert.

My Toyotas are 5w-30 from factory and I've always used HPR5 with 5,000rpm intervals

there are only so many choices available for the general public consumer. always used castrol edge 5w30 and have considered valvoline but will definitely try the HPR stuff since it can be bought from supercheapautos which is just down the road for me

I'm much happier with the way my M54B25 is running on Penrite HPR5 than the last 2 or 3 changes on Castrol Edge 0W40. I know it's LL (something) certified, don't matter much to me as I'm changing oil and filter at 10k intervals. I've been a loyal Castrol user for more than 20 years, I've changed to Penrite synthetics on both my vehicles (HPR10 in the other), better value and improved performance (reduced noise, use) for street use over the main players. I'm not an oils engineer; I did a lot of reading and then decided ultimately to make a consumer decision and get on with it. If I was racing or nurturing a newly rebuilt engine, it might be different.

If I were having my oil changed by my trusted independent, I'd be going with their recommendations (such as Glenn's recommendation, above).

+1 on the bulk-buying front. I bought 20l Fuchs DexIII ATF to flush my Volvo trans, significant $ saving over buying 5l packs at retail.

cheers, hope that helps.

Olaf

[wtbdeath 4]

I have heard good words on Penrite, I am not against it. Actually I was using Envro+ 5w30 wichi is LL-04 approved oil for the last 20L oil changes, they are good, no doubt about that.

On noise side, thick oil can elimates certain noise, like the most common tapping noise, maybe some rattling from VANOS as well? Thinner oil on the other hand, can reduce friction and can elimates some other noise, like Mobil 1 0W40 is thinner than Castrol 0W40 which makes Mobil 1 very quiet.

Penrite is good, it is even better they have 100% PAO and ESTER oils, the only consern is they are not LL-01 approved. I have sent them an email asking about if their full synthetic VANOS safe. I will keep you all updated.

Edit: Hack, My Nissan SR20DE engine sounds like BMW once I put Envro+ 5W30 in it, very nice. It had Castrol cheap 20W50 in it before that.

Edited July 2, 2015 by wtbdeath

[wtbdeath 4]

Yep, looks like my understanding is correct, we can use premium 0w40 for the oil. 0W40 has better VI than 5W30 which means the visity curve is better

$258 /20 L for HPR5 and $298/ 20L for Premuim 0W40, I guess the extra $40 well worth it!

Here is the reply from Penrite

Dear Nick,

As this car is well outside warranty we can be a bit flexible but still need to respect what BMW want in the engine.

If we put aside the LL-01 specification you are going to need more frequent oil changes than would have been allowed under that spec. You could check this with BMW.

The attached graph shows FS0W-40 to be a good alternative to HPR 5 in terms of viscosity and, of course, it uses better quality base oil than that found in HPR 5.

[Allanw 1071]

The LL rating has little to do with a suitable oil - For the M54, BMW specs said LL-01 AND ACEA A3/B4

The A3/B4 makes it a high shear strength oil, and suitable for long drains anyway - getting the LL rating just means manoey has been paid to BMW to use the name (and the oil makes the grade, of course).

I just changed our M54 from Penrite 5W-40 back to Castrol Edge 0W-40. Intersting to see the fuel consumption drop sharlpy after the change, I noticed it go up when I went to the Penrite. I can only attribute this to the HIGH amount of short trips we do with thick/cold oil, and the 0W rating meaning it's thinner than the 5W Penrite when cold.

Certainly no difference is noise or performance noticable... but really the fuel consumption should be getting worse, with the MUCH colder weather we've been having!

[wtbdeath 4]

The A3/B4 makes it a high shear strength oil, and suitable for long drains anyway - getting the LL rating just means manoey has been paid to BMW to use the name (and the oil makes the grade, of course).

This is partially true, yes, you have to pay BMW to approve oil, but hey, think as a oil company, would you rather paying BMW to get it approved so you have more customer or you prefer your customers doing the guess game?

In order to pass LL-01 approval, the oil has to go through a set of specific tests on specific BMW engines under specific conditions. Not all A3/B4 oil can pass that, not all A3/B4 oil is VANOS compatible. The only way to make sure? is having that LL-01/ 04 approval tag on oil can. Is that particular weighted approved oil suits your car in your climate zone? You will have to work it out yourself.

Yes, I know BMW says as long as it is LL-01 , it is fine, yes it is FINE, but is your engine working at optimal level? I don't think so.

I just changed our M54 from Penrite 5W-40 back to Castrol Edge 0W-40. Intersting to see the fuel consumption drop sharlpy after the change, I noticed it go up when I went to the Penrite. I can only attribute this to the HIGH amount of short trips we do with thick/cold oil, and the 0W rating meaning it's thinner than the 5W Penrite when cold.

Certainly no difference is noise or performance noticable... but really the fuel consumption should be getting worse, with the MUCH colder weather we've been having!

Penrite is always on the thick side of 40 if I am not mistaken, rate "40" is a range, not a number, so Castrol 40 is about 13.5 @ 100C while Penrite 40 is around 14.9 @100C, you will notice further fuel consumption drop if you switch to Mobil 0W40, as it is around 12.6@100C , it is not too much to do with short driving as unless you only drive it 10 mins, otherwise they will be at working temperature anyway.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2133]

I switched to Penrite from Castrol about 3 or 4 years ago when Castrol didnt have a suitable oil for my V12 (E32/E34 use all sorts of specific oils for the hydraulic brakes etc)

Ended up swapping engine oils too, and now use only Penrite for my own cars and the fleet at work I am responsible for.

Im no scientist or particularly clued up on oil, and I'll use the Hiace as an example only because i do 40,000km a year, but i do know I used to burn up Castrol in the Hiace, low level light always came on about 8-9000km after oil change so needed another litre to get it across the line.

Since switching to Penrite (same weight) i usually down to about half by the time 10,000km comes round.

Take from that what you will, but i think thats pretty good, for an engine that has done 450,000km now, its always going to burn some!!

[wtbdeath 4]

I switched to Penrite from Castrol about 3 or 4 years ago when Castrol didnt have a suitable oil for my V12 (E32/E34 use all sorts of specific oils for the hydraulic brakes etc)

Ended up swapping engine oils too, and now use only Penrite for my own cars and the fleet at work I am responsible for.

Im no scientist or particularly clued up on oil, and I'll use the Hiace as an example only because i do 40,000km a year, but i do know I used to burn up Castrol in the Hiace, low level light always came on about 8-9000km after oil change so needed another litre to get it across the line.

Since switching to Penrite (same weight) i usually down to about half by the time 10,000km comes round.

Take from that what you will, but i think thats pretty good, for an engine that has done 450,000km now, its always going to burn some!!

Now I see, most of people like Penrite because engine stopped burning oil, it is a side effect as the oil it self being thick. Castrol 0w40 does NOT have same thickness as Penrite 0W40, they are same weight, yes, but "40" is a range, not a number.

[Allanw 1071]

Penrite is always on the thick side of 40 if I am not mistaken, rate "40" is a range, not a number, so Castrol 40 is about 13.5 @ 100C while Penrite 40 is around 14.9 @100C, you will notice further fuel consumption drop if you switch to Mobil 0W40, as it is around 12.6@100C , it is not too much to do with short driving as unless you only drive it 10 mins, otherwise they will be at working temperature anyway.

Very rare ours would be up to operating temps on a lot of the trips . Oil usually takes longer to heat up than the coolant, and often the coolant only gets to 70C. Some of our cars trips are only 7 minutes on VERY country backroads, and to town centre is only about 12 minutes We just have to drive up and down, and round and around an extinct volcano to get anywhere The school run is the one that heats it up good - open road the whole way, but corners and hills to make it exciting

Like you say, the SAE test ranges are quite wide, so the least viscous 40, is pretty much the same as the most viscous 30.