Has BMW lost its soul?

[Herbmiester 923]

I did pick up on those traits Ron and I understand them as well. The point of all this was to have a bit of a chat about the state of BMW vs the rest of the car world. I personally don't see myself owning a car other than a BMW except maybe a Porsche. It's just that at the turn of the century the E46 M3 was being compared to a 911 now it's Camaro''s and Cadillac's.

[M3AN 4016]

<bangs head at thread>

Yes, so all of this diatribe proves the lack of "soul".

If the conversation needs to be objective then the soul is lost...

[Ahmedsinc 414]

You'll get not argument from me than the pushrod V8s so loved by many have been technologically outdated for decades now. Even the advent of direct injection aint gonna change that. My qualm with the new stuff is longevity & reliability. From what I've read the N series of engines seem to be good for 160,000km before they're so worn as to be uneconomic to rebuild. And there really is no comparison between the new Alpha chassis and the current M cars. Both designed and set up for markets so hopelessly different as to make it impossible to evenly compare them together.

For me, at least, it comes down to something that doesn't try to kill me if I approach a corner at speed combined with a reliable power plant that makes me giggle like a twit on NO.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

Going back to somewhere near the original topic..

In my book the 'soul' of most Euro / Asian cars has gradually been killed by a combination of emissions / fuel consumption controls and safety / impact protection.

When I started in the industry there were groups of crazy car people trying to make things that would scare you half to death. Now it's all bean counters, risk assessments and computer geeks.

Even the M dudes have all their toys kept under control by the joy germs.

[kwhelan 241]

Probably safe to say all mass production cars have lost soul. the whole system has been simplified to cut costs,

designers using computers looking for the best option are surely going to come up with the same answers regardless of whether they are chinese or german because they are sharing info 'all using the same input data and looking for the same result, things like emissions,consumption,road noise etc

because of company buyouts and sharing arrangements you now have Porsche technology turning up in skodas or kia ,well you get the drift

massproduction dictates the chassis as much as function

styling is copied or outsourced to the same studios or designers are poached and laws dictate things like headlight sizes and location for crash testing purposes anyway

It must be very hard to stand out nowadays when the playing field is so leveled

Soul is perhaps a thing of the past when you needed to accept a car for its quirks /idiosyncrasy's ,our most fond memories are of some piece of well loved machinery that popped out of gear at the most inopportune time or something like that,

cars are just to appliance like now for people to really care, they have got so good you just expect them to work,

I cant remember even checking oil or water between 12 month intervals because I know thru experience it just never changes.

[benpaul12 62]

I don't think they have, if anything it seems to me that Mercedes and BMW have retained and increased their soul. While all Audi's share their platform across the VW group vehicles and they all look the same - they've gone in the same direction as the Jap carmakers.

The 2 series is a blot on this view though.

[KwS 2425]

Mercedes cars have no soul. AMG make good noises but beyond that they have no personality and feel like an appliance. Go sit in one and tell me it feels special.

BMW is at least still passionate about what they are making.

[Herbmiester 923]

Perhaps this is what we have been waiting for. http://www.drive.com.au/new-car-reviews/bmw-m2-coupe-first-drive-review-20160225-gn3o2w.html

It's the third review I have read that says the car is easier to drive and less twitchy than the M3/4 plus it looks smokin hot! In same ways it reminds me of an E46 M3, probably just the size.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Herbmiester

[hotwire 352]

BMW is at least still passionate about what they are making.

Prolly cause they are pretty much the only major (relatively) company that is still stand alone, rather than having been absorbed into the other conglomerates

[MLM 57]

Soul for me is a descriptor of of character. Partially inherent in the design but also earnt over time. Does the old stuff have more soul, yes because it have been part of our psyche for a longer period of time, we learn to love the traits of a design good or bad. The new stuff hasn't had this effect yet so is perceived as less soulful even if the designs are equally good. increased cadence of model release makes it even harder to judge.

Its also the cadence of model release where bmw could loose its way where designs only need to cover a shorter period of time. Design errors are tolerated because of this bringing with it short bursts of bad product. A "fixed in the next release" mentality combined with a arrogance of "you will have to buy the next model" marketing bs encouraging shorter design service life. The new car buyer will not notice, the second hand owner will damaging the brand name in that segment. I see this in many forms of product development. Is bmw doing this, have to wait till I buy my next "new" car...

[kwhelan 241]

"Soul for me is a descriptor of of character. Partially inherent in the design but also earnt over time. Does the old stuff have more soul, yes because it have been part of our psyche for a longer period of time, we learn to love the traits of a design good or bad."

not so sure about the time aspect,isnt soul more giving an object a human quality, flawed or with a character? people used to name their old cars,i suspect rons old vw had a name not necessarily because of the length of time he owned it.

can't imagine anyone naming their new sedan/hatchback nowdays

I wonder too that bmw might have hit a peak at some point and thru just overuse the brand will loose ground much like apple. you can't stay top forever regardless of how good the product, peoples perceptions and moods will waver. If all they test is comparing every new car to an M then sooner or later your going to be writing something else just to be different or make a point

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

If you want soul then the only car for you is an Integra Type R.

[Herbmiester 923]

As I said in the first sentence of the first post perhaps this should read has BMW lost its way. But really my intention from was more about is that has everyone caught up to BMW? My thoughts are not everyone has caught up but some have and the Cadillac CTSv is a good example. To further qualify this I am really only looking at the 3 Series segment (Maybe the 2 as well). I mean how many times have cars been described as 3 Series competitors because essentially BMW created the segment. Anyway I really hope that BMW stick the M3 Engine in the M2 as the M2 chassis seems to be getting more plaudits than its bigger brother.

[Olaf 3317]

I shouid like to call a point of order here: 'the segment' formerly known as "the sport saloon" in the 2-litre (or thereabouts class) was surely created in the 1960s, one of the cheif protagonists was the Triumph 2000 (straight 6) then competing with the BMW Neu Klasse. The class got a little split/cloned where we had Dolomite Sprint/2002 + 3 Series, and Triumph 2500/5 series. Larger 2 litre class and smaller 2 litre class.... eventually everything got a six!

I will concede that BMW has essentially owned the segment since the e21 323i. and in the larger 2 litre class, the 5er has pretty much owned the segment.

- well packaged

- sporty handling

- executive image/cachet

- solidly engineered

- class-leading in refinement, drive, comfort, handling, performance. It is for these reasons the 3er has consistently been the segment benchmark.

The question Herbmeister rightly poses, could be reinterpreted as: "is the 3er still the segment benchmark? Has BMW lost their competetive advantage?"

Ron, you can besmirch 911 character from here till sunday, though I've never met one I'd boot out of my party #8 ) bad character is in the eye of the beholder. After all, there are many in the british isles who describe BMW, Mercedes etc as 'german skateboards' and 'magnetically attracted to hedges arse-first'... which is more representative of a lack of experience with RWD and loss of traction, than any poor manners on the part of 3er or c-class.

Olaf