e30 Big brakes or 5 stud.

[Ace Of Spades 51]

I am slowly building a "fun" e30 (was 325i) with a few go fast bits to do alot of street use and a little track day action, and have a few questions about brakes and weather or not a big brake upgrade is better compared to a 5 stud swap, (cost, easiness, wheels)

I currently have a set of rx7 brakes but i don't think there going to hack it.

We think I will be adding around 150ish kgs to the engine bay and easily doubling the horsepower (probably a lot more).

The main question I have is if I do the 5 lug swap will 330i e46 brakes be big enough? or would the 540i/750i 4 lug swap be a better option?

Also would love to here any other advice as well. Very new to this side of performance and I would like to be able to stop if I go a bit fast on the track.

Cheers

Sam

[national8 19]

PM me. I may have a solution to your brake problem

[Ace Of Spades 51]

We have guessed the power to be around 350-400whp (Just comparing of others with similar mods)

The problem I'm having is that i would like at a minimum to have 300mm rotors up front with some nice big calipers but would like to run 16" wheels (Not a huge fan of 17" on an e30)

The rear's would be done as well as the master cylinder and brake booster (need a smaller one any way).

With the added weight taken into account as well I have come to a decision that I have no F**king idea and would really like some help.

Have spoken with a few people who have done the same engine swap/bits as myself, one is running the rx7 swap and 16" wheels and has said that he runs out of brakes quite easily on the track. The other is using the e36/z3 5 stud swap and 330i rotors/calipers and 17" wheels but still reckons he would like/need more brakes if he were to track it regularly.

Any info, Opinions or advice would be awesome

[gjm 3258]

Does running out of brakes imply requiring more pressure, greater nodulation, or simply a lack of brakes?

Good fluid will help make the best of the mechanical parts. Something like Endless, or similar.

[M3AN 4016]

Yeah, running out of brakes implies you had enough then you didn't. If this is the case you fix this will fluid, pads and cooling. If you ever have enough then you always have enough, you just need to fix what's wrong with the current setup.

On the other hand, if the stopping distance is below par when everything is fresh (think >35m to stop from 100km/h) then you don't have enough brakes and you need to upgrade something.

I don't think you'll ever fit 300mm rotors (with calipers!) under 16" rims but stand to be corrected. If you can it will be tight as... 280mm might be more comfortable.

How much will the car weigh (+/- 100kgs?)

[gjm 3258]

I don't think you'll ever fit 300mm rotors (with calipers!) under 16" rims but stand to be corrected. If you can it will be tight as... 280mm might be more comfortable.

The Ford guys in the UK are getting 325 and even 330mm under 16" rims when using AP 4-pots.

[E30-323ti 66]

I can fit 16's over my brembos w/325mm rotors (and even some 15's on the rear with 312mm M3 rotors).

Even those brakes can loose some bite on the track with road pads, with the pagids race pads they just seem to bite harder.

E46 330i rotors whilst a good diameter are only 25mm thick, and have a basic venting arrangement. M3 rotors have much wider vents and are radial (handed left/right) to keep cool.

Having been through several degrees of bbk on the E30, doing it again I'd go for something like the 300mm race setup that Massive do with a 4 or 6 pot will wood over a 32mm thick rotor.

[Ace Of Spades 51]

Does running out of brakes imply requiring more pressure, greater nodulation, or simply a lack of brakes?

Good fluid will help make the best of the mechanical parts. Something like Endless, or similar.

Just simply lack of brakes, both have said rotors will warp and pads are buggered after a day at the track depending on how they drove.(trashing the hell out of them)

The guy with the 330i brakes said that they are all good until he starts pushing the car towards the end of the day. (Brake fade )

With the rx7 brakes there simply wasn't enough.

Yeah, running out of brakes implies you had enough then you didn't. If this is the case you fix this will fluid, pads and cooling. If you ever have enough then you always have enough, you just need to fix what's wrong with the current setup.

On the other hand, if the stopping distance is below par when everything is fresh (think >35m to stop from 100km/h) then you don't have enough brakes and you need to upgrade something.

I don't think you'll ever fit 300mm rotors (with calipers!) under 16" rims but stand to be corrected. If you can it will be tight as... 280mm might be more comfortable.

How much will the car weigh (+/- 100kgs?)

That is what I am thinking with his 330i setup, Roughly 1400ish kgs give or take a driver.

I can fit 16's over my brembos w/325mm rotors (and even some 15's on the rear with 312mm M3 rotors).

Even those brakes can loose some bite on the track with road pads, with the pagids race pads they just seem to bite harder.

E46 330i rotors whilst a good diameter are only 25mm thick, and have a basic venting arrangement. M3 rotors have much wider vents and are radial (handed left/right) to keep cool.

Having been through several degrees of bbk on the E30, doing it again I'd go for something like the 300mm race setup that Massive do with a 4 or 6 pot will wood over a 32mm thick rotor.

You have a pm thankyou

[Jibs05 86]

What pads are you running? Some high end pads, slotted rotors, fluid and cooling will do you. Ive heard the rx7 brakes arent good for racing (but that's not 1st hand experience). I run E46 328i brakes and motul fluid, never ran out of brakes at a track day.

[Ace Of Spades 51]

What pads are you running? Some high end pads, slotted rotors, fluid and cooling will do you. Ive heard the rx7 brakes arent good for racing (but that's not 1st hand experience). I run E46 328i brakes and motul fluid, never ran out of brakes at a track day.

Its allgood man, sorted now.

Got the advice need cheers guys, Mods can close and remove if needed

[polley 916]

Or you could let everyone know the conclusion you came to?

[gjm 3258]

Its allgood man, sorted now.

Got the advice need cheers guys, Mods can close and remove if needed

Sam - please could you let us know what the outcome is?

It'll save anyone else interested having to go through the process of asking and so on.

[Ace Of Spades 51]

Sure thing, for anyone who wants to know .The only reason I will be running this setup is cause I want to run 16" wheels!

The solution I have chosen is stay with the 4x100 as I this is not a race car but more a street car for some track use. "As they are always heavier than dedicated track cars, don't have any real brake cooling, and are often quite powerful and drive by people who don't really know how to brake on a race-track / in a race-car" This is me and from what I have been told, oem (5 stud) pad thickness is limited compared to the likes of willwood or brembo, thus poor durability (compared) when you throw lots of heat on them on track.

Yes the 5 stud swap offers a more "stiffer" setup and can be modified using stock oem parts but for the ease I will stay with 4x100.

The price is also a big factor, first doing a 5 stud swap, then sourcing bigger brakes and also trying to make them fit under a 16" wheel compared to a one off bolt on kit made for 16" wheels. (Yes you could possibly do it a little cheeper finding/using other parts)

As with most of the 5 stud brake options I would have to go aftermarket for 300mm brakes to fit 16" wheels thus making it a little easier with the 4 stud option

I will use lee's bbk 4x100 setup for the front, (http://www.massivebrakes.com/brake-systems.php?p=e30_front_300x32mm) for a few reasons, thicker disk, Bigger pad, Better caliper and will fit under 16" wheels (really wanting to run 16" wheels)

This kit is the same price as the 300mm/22mm kit so for the sake of it il get the better one.

The rear setup will most likely be his rear bbk package. Will also be running an e32 booster and master cylinder.

Major thanks to " E30-323ti " for some proper good advice

Hope this makes sense

Edited April 9, 2016 by Ace of Spades

[Olaf 3344]

jebus, that's a serious brake kit (the Massive 300x32 kit)! Very impressive. You're designing for 400 wheel horsepower. How much does your vehicle weigh? Is it the same as street trim, or significantly lighter?

Firstly, a little about "warping brakes". Plenty of people talk about warping rotors, though this is a very rare occurrence - actually getting enough heat into a rotor before applying forces to alter its shape/form before cooling. Think about it - how does that happen in context of a braking system? Most folks aren't getting their rotors red-hot. More often, it is pad material imprinting onto the surface of the rotor, or uneven wear.

What Causes Brake Pulsation?

Raybestos Brake Tech School, Part One: Rotors Don't Warp

That's certainly an awesome brake kit you've decided on, though you may be hitting the acorn with a sledge hammer. Relatively simple upgrades like cooling ducts, racing brake fluid, and high-performance pad material, even slotted and/or drilled rotors are places you can visit that won't see you needing to get low-volume certification for street use.

It could also be your technique.

You should know: you can actually have "too much brakes".

cheers

Edited April 7, 2016 by Olaf

[polley 916]

I've changed pads, fluid and mc in mine and it's been alright so far... Been through a few pads before finding some that worked. Also around the 400hp mark.

I'm not braking super hard or late, but haven't had problems at taupo or hamptons.

Anyway, I was interested in seeing what you decided to go with as I've also got 16" wheels and don't want to change them if I decide to upgrade the brakes.

[Olaf 3344]

which pads did you settle on, Troy? and which ones did you work through and eliminate? it'd be really interesting to read of your experiences. Might save others a bit of leg-work too.

cheers

[polley 916]

which pads did you settle on, Troy? and which ones did you work through and eliminate? it'd be really interesting to read of your experiences. Might save others a bit of leg-work too.

cheers

I'd have to try find a receipt or pull one out as I honestly can't remember or I would of said

But have been through the ebc range and they are trash.

[gjm 3258]

I will use lee's bbk 4x100 setup for the front, (http://www.massivebrakes.com/brake-systems.php?p=e30_front_300x32mm) for a few reasons, thicker disk, Bigger pad, Better caliper and will fit under 16" wheels (really wanting to run 16" wheels)

The rear setup will most likely be his rear bbk package. Will also be running an e32 booster and master cylinder.

That looks like really good vfm. I was looking at a similar 4x100 set up on 300mm.de: 300x24 front and 294x19 rear using Porsche Boxster ATE calipers with all mounting kit supplied, but that's 50% more (before shipping).

[Ace Of Spades 51]

That looks like really good vfm. I was looking at a similar 4x100 set up on 300mm.de: 300x24 front and 294x19 rear using Porsche Boxster ATE calipers with all mounting kit supplied, but that's 50% more (before shipping).

Yeah I think so, saw the de kits but the price just put them way out or reach, plus its a smaller width rotor.

I've changed pads, fluid and mc in mine and it's been alright so far... Been through a few pads before finding some that worked. Also around the 400hp mark.

I'm not braking super hard or late, but haven't had problems at taupo or hamptons.

Anyway, I was interested in seeing what you decided to go with as I've also got 16" wheels and don't want to change them if I decide to upgrade the brakes.

Is this little beast certified? if so who was your cert guy ( I have been told by mine that i will need large upgraded brakes)

[polley 916]

Yeah I think so, saw the de kits but the price just put them way out or reach, plus its a smaller width rotor.

Is this little beast certified? if so who was your cert guy ( I have been told by mine that i will need large upgraded brakes)

No it's not, but I thought the test was 3 hard stops from 100kph without any fade - which it would pass without problem. Unless it's changed.

[Ace Of Spades 51]

No it's not, but I thought the test was 3 hard stops from 100kph without any fade - which it would pass without problem. Unless it's changed.

Really? I've been lead to believe it has changed then but i will email and look into it further and find out.

[polley 916]

Really? I've been lead to believe it has changed then but i will email and look into it further and find out.

http://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/standards/LVVTA_STD_Braking_Systems.pdf

Section 2.4

[M3AN 4016]

No it's not, but I thought the test was 3 hard stops from 100kph without any fade - which it would pass without problem. Unless it's changed.

That's crazy. Drum brakes could pass that test.

[aja540i 1906]

Its the time factor that most cant cope with, 0-100-0 three times in 2minutes without a noticeable loss of performance! It can be fun to watch!

[Olaf 3344]

it's interesting. Useful link, Troy - thanks.

• power increase 20-50% above factory - 3 cycles 0-100-0 within 2 minutes.
• power increase above 50% above factory power output - 5 cycles 0-100-0 within 3 minutes.

You lads with the big (350-400rwhp) power under the hood will be needing the real big brakes. I can only imagine how much fun that is to play with.