1995 E36 325i Performance Chip

[BradMosen 16]

I was wondering if anyone knows a good place to purchase a performance chip for a '95 325i as I am looking to get a lil bit more power out of my car.

[gjm 3258]

Sooo close...
I have a chip for a M20B20...  <sigh>

[bga 96]

got this guy saved on FB as looking to do something in the future, he's on the North Shore chap called Mario - https://www.facebook.com/carchiptuning/

Edited November 16, 2017 by bga

[Mad_Max 233]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

Put an M52 B28 in it going for about the price of 2 chips and they are a crap load better then an M50 ever will be 

Sorry but I have to disagree with that. Yes M52B28 has more torque, both are rated to nearly the same hp from factory. Same block casting. Same bore. M50B25NV has a smaller combustion chamber and larger lift/longer duration cams.

If you've seen the prices people ask for a good, running M52B28 ($500 - $900 usually), then a couple of chips at say $150 each is cheaper and easier.... and no need for a cert (which technically is required for the swap), which saves another $450 - $500. And you also don't need to change engine looms, DME, EWS etc etc etc, saving a lot of time and labour.

Chipping is cheaper. Do you get the same gains as the swap? No, no arguments there. But it ain't so easy just to dump another motor in there unfortunately.

[BradMosen 16]

1 hour ago, Mad_Max said:

Sorry but I have to disagree with that. Yes M52B28 has more torque, both are rated to nearly the same hp from factory. Same block casting. Same bore. M50B25NV has a smaller combustion chamber and larger lift/longer duration cams.

If you've seen the prices people ask for a good, running M52B28 ($500 - $900 usually), then a couple of chips at say $150 each is cheaper and easier.... and no need for a cert (which technically is required for the swap), which saves another $450 - $500. And you also don't need to change engine looms, DME, EWS etc etc etc, saving a lot of time and labour.

Chipping is cheaper. Do you get the same gains as the swap? No, no arguments there. But it ain't so easy just to dump another motor in there unfortunately.

Very well said and helpful

[dirtydoogle 383]

3pedals is quite right. I have both 328 and 325s and the m52 is far superior. A whole lot more torque 

[Mad_Max 233]

18 minutes ago, dirtydoogle said:

3pedals is quite right. I have both 328 and 325s and the m52 is far superior. A whole lot more torque 

No argument there, the two are different animals to drive and yes I will always pick an M52B28 over any M5X25 or M50BX motor. However, bang for buck for the original question, swapping motors ain't worth the cash it will cost to have similar rated hp from factory but just more torque. To do it legally, you're talking $1k or more.

Money is better spent elsewhere to pick up basic performance. For example, swapping the stock exhaust manifolds to M52B28 exhaust manifolds will see a small increase in torque, due to their design. A decent chip will give more top end. There's more that can be done to the intake and exhaust side of things to pick a little up here and little up there and so on, again dependant on the budget.

If the OP wants ultimate performance and has no budget for motor, driveline, cert etc, then yes, go for a motor swap, drop an S52 or better in there. All comes down to what is wanted in the end and what will fit in someone's budget.

[Mad_Max 233]

Actually, factually incorrect. M50 and M52 motors both share the same common identification codes, being 206S and 256S, therefore are the same blocks. Argue this all you want, I have the paperwork in front of me to prove those ID codes, it's all readily available information.

The M50B20 and B25 both have a larger intake cam, however, as the TA's car is a 1995, it will most likely have an M50B25TU motor, the first of the Vanos ones, which has basically the same cams as the M52B28. So wrong again on that fact in relation to the TA's car.

No arguments at all regarding the exhaust, it can use a lot of improvement over factory regardless of what engine you have. However, keep in mind that runner lengths, shape and size, as well as design, can be used to change the engine's dynamics.

The M52B28 has 5mm more stroke, hence why it has more torque. I don't think there's any reason I need to explain why 5mm difference in crank stroke makes a difference to both torque and ho, do I? So the question becomes, if the M52 is so much better designed, why then do you get a good result from throwing the M50 manifold onto it? Why does that make the air velocity "too slow" for the M50?

In theory, the M52 is an overly square design (1:1) when you look at bore and stroke measurements, therefore it should not like high revs, will rev slower but will produce a higher torque figure for the available hp. The M50, on the other hand, is a 1.77:1 rod/stroke ratio, which means it will be happier revving harder, however will produce less torque. Still produces almost the same hp as the M52 though.

“Minor mods” to the M52 usually start with putting the M50 manifold on, to increase air flow into the motor. After that is exhaust, tuning, cold air intake etc. So if the M50 manifold is such a poor design, with runners that are too large, why is it so effective on the M52? Can’t be the camshaft lift and duration when compared to the M50, only the intake cam is larger. And that’s only with the non Vanos motors.

I do agree a properly designed set of headers will do a lot of good, yes equal length (if possible) is definitely the way to go. There’s a lot more factors that come into it, depending on what you want to achieve, such as primary diameters, overlap with exhaust ports, etc. etc.

Going back to what the TA originally asked, he wants a “lil bit more power” and is looking at a chip, I am guessing it’s because he doesn’t want to spend a s**tload in swapping motors, certs, fancy custom made exhausts, cam grinding, and so on…… all of which everyone else is telling him to do. Chips bought ex USA from Turners are around $350 (and I’m positive there are other well known tuners that you could get cheaper chips from). I want to know where I can buy an M52B28 for $700 (the price of two chips as you stated) and get it installed in a car without any extra costs, no certs, nothing.

On and FYI, Turners chip? 20hp and 13Nm torque increase….. a bigger increase than you predicted after spending $600 or more on an custom exhaust.

The chip is still the better “bang for buck” mod.

[zero 1162]

2 hours ago, Mad_Max said:

Actually, factually incorrect. M50 and M52 motors both share the same common identification codes, being 206S and 256S, therefore are the same blocks. Argue this all you want, I have the paperwork in front of me to prove those ID codes, it's all readily available information.

The same block, apart from material used (iron vs alloy).

I agree that chipping is a much cheaper option.

[Mad_Max 233]

10 minutes ago, zero said:

I agree that chipping is a much cheaper option.

That's the exact point right there, chipping (for what the TA wants) is the cheapest option.

2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Nice rant but full of errors M50 is a cast iron block M52 is alloy , some M52 engines used the M50 iron block in certain markets. 

As for the M50 manifold on an M52 - total disaster just makes it into an M50 i.e too much flow and not enough velocity  and as per the M50 the best thing you can do is let the gas out of an M52 with a better exhaust.  There are plenty of US M3's and hotted up 328's pullling north of 170kW with the stock M52 intake manifold , its NOT a problem ( got one in the garage) 180kW is easy even 190kW after that a bit more flow is useful. 

I'll ignore the pointless technobable which adds nothing to the argument,  as for the Turners claim well they can claim what they like 

 

 

Lol you've just confirmed the fact I stated, they are the same block in terms of design. Both blocks are cast iron. The only difference is in most markets, nikasil was added to the cylinder liners on the M52BXX motors..... both use the same iron compound. Both are dimensionally the same. Both run the same bearings, oil and water journals, sumps etc etc etc. The only difference is the nikasil. And yep confirmed wrong by someone else.

Yeah try telling that to everyone that's put an M50 manifold onto an M52B28...... massive change in the engine characteristics. Torque curve moves to the right, hp is up, motor revs more freely. Thousands of people have done and will continue to do this swap because it's cheap and damn effective. Yet you claim it's a total disaster..... I'll bet there's forum members here who will completely argue that so called "fact" because of the change to performance in their car. And trust me, I've done this conversion, not just on my 328i but also on a rally car, and the difference is night and day...... do I need to explain to you the basics of how engines work and how to get the best performance from them?? I think you need to go back and check some facts. There is conclusive proof on the net that the M50 manifold swap is the best bang-for-buck modification you can do to an M52B28. Dyno graphs don't lie when they are done back to back with the same car, same day, same dyno etc etc. 

Again, I'm not arguing about a decent exhaust system helping, that goes without saying with any modifications you do. Yes there's plenty around pushing 200kw, and I would just about bet my left testicle that more than half at that hp rating are running the M50 manifold. 

Yep Turners can claim what they want, after all they've been in the business of supplying aftermarket parts for BMW's since 1993.... so 24 years.... yeah I think they'd know a thing or two and would be pretty conservative with their claims given the likelihood they would get sued left, right and centre, if their claims couldn't be proven.

Again, go back to the TA's original question. Yes chips exist. Yes still cheaper than the engine swap you told him to do.... or the custom exhaust.... 

I'm happy to continue this debate via pm, I think this thread has been hijacked enough and the TA probably still hasn't gotten the clear answer to his question. 

[BradMosen 16]

All I wanted was somewhere to get a good performance chip. Not a new engine.

[dirtydoogle 383]

Bmw dropted Nikasil in 96 btw. Sulphur in fuels eats out the nickel. The m52 b28 should be Alusil. 

Enjoy the 325 for what it is, do anl light flywheel and better diff ratio, make it stop and handle. Winning 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Alternative opinions based on fact are perfectly acceptable.

However, the abusive terminology to others expressed with those opinions is not, hence the need for moderation.

[Mr Vapour 76]

You do know that there is another member on here who's alias is MM. You may want to edit your posts so not to offend. He is a good bloke. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by E30 325i Rag-Top
Quote removed

[qube 3570]

Nah, MM wont take offence to something like this  as you say, hes a good bloke.

[Neal 546]

Had both 325i and 328i

nz versions of 325i had no cat and the engine loved revs  ( smoother at high rpm than 328i and none of the early bore issues of 328i)

Try a de-cat and tuner motor sport chip or dinan Chip.