Harper's M-Texture E46 M3

[M3AN 4016]

40 minutes ago, Harper said:

@M3ANIt doesn't wear nicely for sure. Unfortunately I'm a sucker for alcantara... 

I suppose if you stockpile 10 of them you'll always have a fresh one! 💪

[lbo99 39]

5 hours ago, Harper said:

Bit of an update:

My new dash trim arrived today as well. The paint I used on the handles is pretty much perfect. I don't think you could easily tell my homemade spray painted handles from brand new OEM ones judging by the finish on the new pieces. Honestly much better than I could have hoped for. Got a bit carried away and ended up ordering a brand new centre console switch centre (part that is removed in the third pic). I did pull it out with the intention of refinishing it the same way I did the underside of the door handles. It was in much worse shape though. Really scratched up and sticky. However once getting it out it was clear that a previous owner had hacked it up and it was held together with silicone anyway, probably for an aftermarket head unit or something. $300 later and a brand new one is coming. Ouch. Should make everything feel a bit fresher though. Once the seats are in, all that's really left on the interior is an alcantara wheel and new A and C pillars (sagging), then I'll have a breather for a while.

The following all happened prior to the above and is much less interesting but I thought I might as well do a photo dump and that way it's documented. 

Best thing about lockdown so far has been ticking off all the sh*t jobs I didn't want to touch, nothing very exciting (hopefully that is to come in the next few weeks). Biggest one being painting the CMP subframe reinforcement bar. Was terrified of getting overspray somewhere that mattered or it looking rubbish so my boot was left stripped out for weeks. Finally got to it last week. Basically spent a whole day just turning the interior into a spray booth, paranoid about overspray. 

I had already previously stripped the spare wheel well down to bare metal as a previous owner at some point, not the person I bought the car from, had fiberglassed a subwoofer in and there was a bunch of leftover fiberglass stuck to the boot floor. Fool. Primer then paint went on. Just used the titanium silver body colour. 

Goal was never really to make it perfect. Just improve it. The CMP stuff is never going to look super OEM so as long as it looks decent then I can live with it. It is in the boot after all. The paint came up really good. Finish was nice enough given I couldn't clean or sand the surface perfectly. 

Next was the miserable job of cutting the carpets to size. Climbed in and out of the boot countless times and going back and removing slightly more. Came up with an okay enough fit I think. The board that goes underneath the carpets was a bit trickier because it had to be cut with a jigsaw and fit around the tube sections on the main beam. I managed to get it close enough but not perfect. My jigsaw skills are a 5/10 at best. If I was really smart I would have left the centre section slightly longer and it would have tucked under the beam nicely. I'll know for next time...

Didn't like the exposed silver between the bars either so I made some templates out of cardboard and cut some sections to fit from a donor boot floor carpet I had. 

Everything went back in with brand new clips. Once the carpet was in with my new OEM trunk mat it looks about as close to factory as I'm going to get. Only sign of it is a hump in the floor, and when you pull back the carpets it's not too ugly. Stoked. 

 

Oh God, that's a lot of nice stuff going on with your car 😍 
Keep it going and we'll love to see more updates of your progress here.

[Michael. 2313]

Oo those rear chassis braces are nice. 

[Autoglym 255]

On 9/5/2021 at 7:53 PM, Harper said:

@AutoglymI likely won't have any leftover. It is fairly available but pricey. If you want the reproduction fabric by ASC (which is as far as I can tell indistinguishable from the OE fabric), made with the same alcantara perforated the same way, same cloth base layer etc (https://www.ascfabrics.com/product-page/mtexture). However, the OE stuff is still available from some places at a slightly higher price (part # is 51922698028, sold by the meter I believe.) although it is all old stock so not quite as fresh as brand new stuff. 

With that being said, I would be cautious only replacing the bases for instance. You would probably want to do the whole seat, if not both front seats. The reason being that the alcantara goes quite gray over time from UV and the colour difference in the new stuff would be obvious. From memory yours was in pretty good shape so it might be a decent match, worth getting a sample though. It came out of the car seen in this video at about 120,000k when it was binned : 

What happened to that car??

Edited September 12, 2021 by Autoglym

[M3_Power 636]

Just FYI

You will not be legally allowed to run rear seats and belts if you don’t have at least one fixed bucket seat with tilt forward capability. You will also not be able to certify the car as a 5 seater if you can’t tilt at least one bucket seat for rear seat access. It’s not a distance to access thing unfortunately.

[Harper 549]

@M3_Power I did check this prior to buying the seats. I could be wrong and it might be outdated but on the LVVTA info sheet it says:

"A low volume vehicle that has a permanent or fixed roof structure and more than one row of seats, must incorporate a ready means of entry and exit, by the most direct path practicable, for all rear seat passengers by having either:

(a) one or more doors adjacent to each row of seating; or

(b) an aisle space of a width of not less than 300 mm from each row of seating to one or more doors; or

(c) one or more seats within each row of seating, other than the rear-most seating row, that folds or tilts forward sufficiently to enable ease of entry and exit."

https://www.lvvta.org.nz/documents/standards/LVVTA_STD_Seats_&_Seat_Anchorages.pdf [page 19, 2.3(9)]

Meaning as long as the seats adhere to one of those qualifications it should be legal. With the breykrause brackets it should meet (b) with the seat all the way forward on the factory sliders and the seat sufficiently upright.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Harper

[Harper 549]

On 9/11/2021 at 4:51 PM, Autoglym said:

What happened to that car??

Wrecked and written off. Bought by Ray and had the interior swapped into what would be your LSB M3. I almost bought the interior when it was for sale but I was too slow

Edited September 12, 2021 by Harper

[M3AN 4016]

3 hours ago, Harper said:

...Meaning as long as the seats adhere to one of those qualifications it should be legal. With the breykrause brackets it should meet (b) with the seat all the way forward on the factory sliders and the seat sufficiently upright.

I think you'll find they mean an absolute minimum, i.e. the 300mm threshold can't ever be less an 300mm using all available adjustments. If you can move the front seat into a position where there isn't a 300mm "aisle" my understanding is that you'll fall foul of the regulation.

That's how it was explained to me when I was researching putting Recaros into my M3. Essentially, in a coupé, if you want to keep the rear seats at least one of the front seats need to fold forward and importantly, the fold leaver/switch must be easily accessible by a rear seat passenger (effectively must be on the backrest or rear hinge/base).

Best to make a quick stop via a LVVC though, certainly don't take my word for it! It was a number of years ago that I was researching this, YMMV.

[Harper 549]

@M3ANThis could be the case. Although it would be a bit strange. The factory CSL seats are not 300mm from the B-pillar until you use the tilt lever. If the same could be achieved by sliding the seat forward it would seem strange for that to not be effectively the same. In other words, I can't see why the rationale for the tilt on the CSL to be allowed but not a slide, when ultimately the purpose is to let someone in or out of the rear seat. The way the seat moves to achieve that seems irrelevant. Not to mention there is probably never a scenario where a bucket seat would be >300mm from the aisle in it's furthest back position, making the qualification pointless. 

You do have a good point about the lever being accessible from the back. It's possible the BK handles are not, but this could be fairly easily modified to have an additional lever coming out the back underneath the seat. Worst case I will get it certed for the rear seat removed, and have some illegal back seats 😁

Edited September 12, 2021 by Harper

[M3AN 4016]

The 300mm requirement doesn't apply if the seats tilt sufficiently (as per CSL), see (c) in the regulations you quote, that makes (b) redundant (or inapplicable).

And yes, a side leaver for slide isn't considered sufficiently accessible from the rear to count. I don't recall but I suspect the CSL tilt leaver also unlocks the slide mechanism?

Adding a mechanism to the rear that unlocks the slider for a front seat, especially the driver's seat, would probably fall foul of some other regulation for obvious reasons.

Edit: Mark (@sweetm3) didn't you retrofit a rear seat exit mechanism for your JCW Recaros in your M3 coupé?

Edited September 12, 2021 by M3AN

[Harper 549]

@M3AN Below C in that document it states:

"NOTE: A seat that tilts forward as referred to in 2.3(9)(c) needs to provide adequate space to allow reasonable access for the type of vehicle. If access is for more than one row of seating or the seats are intended for regular use, then the space provided needs to meet 2.3(9)(b) and be 300 mm wide over the majority of the height"

So B still applies. As for adding another lever, again I'm not sure how it would differ from the CSL tilt (especially if as you say it unlocks the slide mechanism). In terms of lever position LVVTA says it must both:

"(a) be positioned on the side of the seat nearest the adjacent door; and

(b) be within easy reach, and be able to be easily operated by any person relying on the control to assist in exiting the vehicle."

It can be on the side but saying the BK handle is 'within easy reach' is definitely pushing it. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Harper

[M3AN 4016]

Yes, sorry when I said "side" I meant the slider leaver on the side of the seat base, which I wasn't explicit about. Anything on the side of the seat back, within reach of the rear passenger should be fine. Also accepted is the additional 300m requirement even with (c), I didn't click through on your link - the rules are obviously happy to sacrifice fat people! 😂

Edited September 12, 2021 by M3AN

[sweetm3 180]

3 hours ago, M3AN said:

Edit: Mark (@sweetm3) didn't you retrofit a rear seat exit mechanism for your JCW Recaros in your M3 coupé?

I did and the slider worked off the seats folding lever. (Not fixed back)

Harper the E36 tunnel didn't allow me get the distance required over the full lenght/height of the seat back.

If I remember it was 30-40mm short at the base of the seat and pillar.

[Harper 549]

Yep it will be close if it doesn't clear. Photo below is of someone with a similar setup (same sliders, but Cobra Nogaros which have similar dimensions to my recaros). By eye, and rough measurements using the door sill as a reference I would say that is 30cm but time will tell... Like I say, worst case, I won't lose sleep over having illegal backseats. 

 

For reference as well, here is a clip of the CSL tilt function. Would be disappointing if the latter is allowed and the above isn't. 

 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Harper

[sweetm3 180]

Harper,

There is a difference between the two videos. Maybe not the end result but how they got there.

I'm sure the CSL seat would slide forward as well as tilt and could been initiated by a rear passenger.

Your call on legality, but rear seats out for WOF and no insurance when you would ready need it.

As Dave said give Wellington a call get clarification, because as I found certifiers can/ do interpret the rules differently.

Hope it works out Mark

 

 

[Harper 549]

Called LVVTA and they were more helpful than I expected.

It does not matter whether the seat slides or tilts. As long as the seat can move forward far enough to allow for 300mm space. As Dave said earlier, there does need to be a lever that is accessable to the rear passenger. This would be easy to make. 

However, what will more likely cause my setup to need the rear seat 'removed' is the seatbelt routing. Because the seat belt will be running diagonally across the aisle, and that is not allowed if it unreasonably hinders access. The guy I spoke to on the phone said it will basically come down to the certifier whether it's too much of a pain to get in and out or not. 

[sweetm3 180]

2 hours ago, Harper said:

Called LVVTA and they were more helpful than I expected 

Ye I was pleasantly surprised how helpful they were. 

2 hours ago, Harper said:

However, what will more likely cause my setup to need the rear seat 'removed' is the seatbelt routing. Because the seat belt will be running diagonally across the aisle, and that is not allowed if it unreasonably hinders access. The guy I spoke to on the phone said it will basically come down to the certifier whether it's too much of a pain to get in and out or not. 

Of course, bugger.

Boy don't you love trying to do something different 

 

[Harper 549]

36 minutes ago, sweetm3 said:

Of course, bugger.

Boy don't you love trying to do something different 

Ha yep, such is the price for not checking all the rules before jumping in. Though I'm not sure knowing in advance would have stopped me anyway 😁

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Harper

[M3_Power 636]

Production cars with fixed backed seats and OE parts swapped into the same production chassis of another model variant come under different rules - the LVVT rules don’t apply to it. A good illustration of this is the Porsche GT3 which come with coilovers and adjustable antiroll bars from the factory and do not require certification even though they are actually made by H&R Bilstein not Porsche.

So for eg if you put e46 m3 csl seats into any e46 chassis the front fixed buckets don’t need to be certified.

The CSL seats tilts and slides with the side lever and provides an access width of 35 at the top and 31cm at the narrowest area.

I had the BK mounts on factory sliders on the driver seat in my Yellow M3 and those don’t give quite enough forward clearance at all points on the forward most setting - so with those sliders it should technically fail.

Ironically the electric sliders actually have a wider forward range so apparently with those it should give more than the required 300mm width for clearance - questionable however if those will pass as they cannot give immediate forward clearance for rear seat passengers to get out in case they need to.

The mechanism for release doesn’t have to be strictly at the side of the seat it just needs to be easily accessible for the rear seat passenger without hinderance or overreach. You’ll need to be aware however aftermarket welding to any part of the seat mechanism is not allowed for aftermarket seats. So it is questionable if you can modify the mounts for release mechanisms that way - I believe each certifier have a different interpretation of this rule.

I’ll go and put the BK slider in my yellow car later and do a measure but from memory it was around 280mm clearance at some areas and deemed it insufficient.

Edited September 13, 2021 by M3_Power

[Harper 549]

Thanks Tom, good to know. 

1 hour ago, M3_Power said:

I had the BK mounts on factory sliders on the driver seat in my Yellow M3 and those don’t give quite enough forward clearance at all points on the forward most setting - so with those sliders it should technically fail

With what seats? and how upright did you have them set in the BK mounts?

1 hour ago, M3_Power said:

Ironically the electric sliders actually have a wider forward range so apparently with those it should give more than the required 300mm width for clearance - questionable however if those will pass as they cannot give immediate forward clearance for rear seat passengers to get out in case they need to.

I can imagine the look you'd get from the certifier as the seat very slowly creeps forward on the power sliders would be quite comical. Can't imagine that would pass given the requirement is intended to make exit easy for rear passengers in case of emergency. 

A little bit unrelated, but do you know if the sedan sliders have a further travel than the coupe sliders? I've seen it suggested that they do (for more rear passenger leg space?)  but haven't seen it shown anywhere. 

1 hour ago, M3_Power said:

So it is questionable if you can modify the mounts for release mechanisms that way - I believe each certifier have a different interpretation of this rule.

I did ask this over the phone this morning and the person I spoke to did not mention this. I asked if I could modify the existing release mechanism to have another lever at the back which was accessible and he said yes. Like you say, could be up to the interpretation of the certifier (much like the seat belt obstruction clause). 

 

Again, in all likelihood it's probably all a bit beside the point because the cert likely wouldn't pass due to the seat belt routing anyway. Maybe if I'd got cobra nogaros instead there would be a chance 🙄

Edited September 13, 2021 by Harper

[Harper 549]

Mmm new parts..

New center console switch compartment and sunglass tray, new door sills (clips on mine were 90% broken), new headlight lenses, and a bunch of other service bits and clips. Unfortunately the seat brackets were further delayed. Now pushed back to early October. 

The finish on the center console stuff is so soft that if you breathe on it, it will scratch. But admittedly, it does look great when it's brand new. 

My old piece for reference, you can see where someone has previously hacked it in half and had siliconed the sunglass tray on.. Yikes

Really looking forward to level 3. Will finally be able to pick up the remainder of the interior and get it off to go get retrimmed. Getting tired of the throwaway leather front seats that are in it. By the time that's done I hope to have the seat brackets and everything can go in. The interior will be more or less 'completed' and I'll have a swap out set of OEM Mtexture front seats to clingwrap and leave in storage...

 

Car got a much needed wash today as well.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Harper

[Cement 874]

Loving the full CMP auto brace ... suspect I'll end up doing the full brace at some point, at which time I'll be coming back here for those top tips again Great job with the painting and getting it oem looking.

[Autoglym 255]

I am going to do the centre console & sunglass container, yours looks great, very clean, was it expensive??

I am replacing both headlight gaskets, removed the cheap shitty Angel Eyes,replaced both taillights, & boot lights, will also replace the exterior window trims, badly sun faded!, so mine is a work in progress!!

[Harper 549]

4 hours ago, Autoglym said:

was it expensive?

I refinished my centre console rather than replacing because they are a little pricey. Depends on if you have an armrest or not as well, different part#. The sunglass tray and switch centre piece are also pretty expensive. I had forever put it off because I couldn't imagine it would be worth the $300 or so it costs. It took pulling mine out and seeing it had been destroyed anyway to convince me I had to buy new ones. However, after buying them I have to say it was well worth. Freshens up the interior a lot if yours are worn considering they are front and centre. Be careful ordering for the switch centre though, there are a few different part#'s depending on how your car was specced. Nav/smoker package/cd changer etc. 

5 hours ago, Autoglym said:

I am replacing both headlight gaskets, removed the cheap shitty Angel Eyes,replaced both taillights, & boot lights, will also replace the exterior window trims, badly sun faded!, so mine is a work in progress!!

Very similar to what I'm doing. The angel eyes are a little too hotboy 2000's look for me they will be coming out. Window trims are a common failing point on these. Most of them I've seen have just been cooked and start to crack and turn to dust. I have all the parts for mine to replace them, but the job itself is a huge ballache so I'm just waiting for a dull weekend to tackle it. 

[m325i 709]

Quote

sunglass tray and switch centre piece are also pretty expensive.

I have a mint OEM sunglass tray that I took out 7 years ago to replace with cupholders. Are they worth money?