F11 v E61

[Apex 693]

 

So I have a grey mid sized SUV, just a grey generic sh*t box suv like your mum drives. I also have a new baby that seems to have more stuff than me, even though he has only been here 5 min.

The grey SUV in question is really starting to show its weakness, ie, interior space, dynamics and now a new reliability issue that has my wife feeling anxious, we have lost trust in it and it is on the chopping block.  

Figuring its worth about 20k, and me being tight and not wanting to spend more than that, and coupled with my lost trust in more modern cars, I am looking at going back to an older vehicle

Get to the point..

Having sold my E60 sedan over 15 years ago and never looking back at BMW's, I am somewhat out of the loop in terms of what's good and whet's not, what ones to avoid and what are sorted, face lift models, N/A vs turbo cars, chocolate gearboxes, common stuff you guys know about. 

So. Experts. What's the skinny on contemporary BMW fiver wagons? Its a family car so I am not really focused on outright performance.

And I know I can google this, so thanks for your time 

 

[JohnM575 112]

Have put circa 30k on my F11 535i MSport over the past couple of years, so here's my 2c.

The N55 paired with the ZF8 is a great combo. Relatively good response down low, the small turbo means it runs out of puff up top if you're really on it. Mine is stock, however the facelift EWG models net a healthy gain with a tune/remap compared to pre-facelift PWG (which mine is). The ZF8 is a very impressive gearbox.

In terms of ride it almost feels too soft for an MSport coming from a few different 3 series in the past, but it is very comfortable and quiet. I ditched the standard 351M's with runflats for 437M's paired with PS4s's - less road noise, better size/fitment, and more than enough grip for a big boat on the open road. I recently switched to an E90 M3 for daily driver duties and the F11 feels like a limousine in comparison. My wife is now driving the F11 with a newborn at home - nice to have the integrated door blinds and tinted windows in the rear for the baby. 

I had an Apple Carplay system retrofitted to the CIC system - worth every penny for a daily driver.

In terms of reliability and servicing, main items attended to are:

• Rear suspension airbags - one leaked, so replaced both.
• RF lower control arm always had a bit of a creak going over speed bumps which bugged me, so had both LCA's replaced which 95% eliminated the noise. 
• Boost solenoid.
• Gearbox serviced (recommended every 10 years or 80k from memory). 

Otherwise just standard items every 10,000km.

You won't go too wrong with a well-spec'd F11 535i MSport at $20k (or 535d MSport if any are on the market). Bonus if you can land a facelift model for that price. 

[Apex 693]

Thanks for the information.

The 535i is the one that appeals to me, guessing it has a twin scroll turbo and will run fine on 95?

What sort of average consumption are you achieving? The claimed consumption seems to good to be true.

[JohnM575 112]

Yes twin scroll turbo. I always run ours on 98, but understand 95 will be fine also. 

From memory our average consumption is circa 12L/100km - commuting into CBD, lots of suburban 50km/h zone stop/start driving, and the odd motorway. 

On long trips it will sit in the 7's/100km on cruise control on the motorway - our Auckland to Cooks Beach trips are usually 8-9L/100km. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by JohnM575

[GorGasm 563]

Also have an F11 535i and it has been great.  Similar issues (front control arms, oil leaks, suspension airbags) which can be dealt with relatively cheaply if you can swing a wrench.  No major fault just regular maintenance really.

Confirm it is big car.  Think of it like a 7 series wagon.  They do handle pretty good despite the weight.

Economy for me has been really good for a 3L turbo and i run on 95.  On the Hamilton to South Auckland return trip i get under 7.5l/100KM.  Current trip counter is at 11l/100km though as it has been doing a lot of under 5km trips in Hamilton.  Basically, open road you will see something around 8l/100km and in the city 9-12l/100km.

Wouldn't bother with a diesel, waste of money.

 

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by GorGasm

[Gaz 1061]

F11 is miles ahead and way more comfortable inside the cabin imo

[Apex 693]

Thanks for the input.

Sounds about as expected for economy, our currant SUV is doing 10.8L/100 average, we only fill once a month so no big deal.

I can throw a wrench, mechanical stuff is ok, and I don't mind replacing the odd sensor or coil if needed. Its the hard to diagnose gremlins that give me the shits, especially if they can paralyze the car for seemingly trivial reasons leaving us stranded or stuck.

I started looking at wagon's last night and there isn't much available that is simple anymore, maybe a VF Holden Commodore SV6 and that's about it. Kind of stuck as to where to look TBH. 

I know its ignorant to say modern cars are "too complicated" and I am aware they are more reliable than ever, but I am aware at how useless specialists are these days and what they cost and I have blown literally tens of thousands with dealers over the years so I'm a bit skeptical.  

Id buy new with a warranty but it seems even basic sh*t is 70+k these days and my brain cant justify new cars prices.

 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Apex
Spell

[balancerider 758]

Wouldn’t rule out a diesel as long as the car will get some decent running (and you can find a 530/535d). 580nm of torque is very nice for shifting 1800kg of wagon. Air suspension liable to need replacement at the age the f11 is now. Expensive options (adaptive suspension / lights / soft close doors) will be expensive to fix if they fail. There is a nice looking 535i LCI in Christchurch but a bit over your budget. 
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/535i/listing/4391340312

[Olaf 3317]

X3 30D Msport - if there's just three of you, or if you add one and all of the baby/kid stuff, you've enough space, easy loading, easy driving.  You need to get some long running in for the diesel... the powertrain is great, silky-smooth... easy to park, a great all-rounder.  Comes with those SAV downsides of greater tyre wear and fuel consumption than a 5er equivalent, but also such a great all-rounder.  Comfortable, quiet, grippy, peppy, frugal.  If you want to pinch more pennies, get the 20D.

[Apex 693]

13 hours ago, Olaf said:

X3 30D Msport - if there's just three of you, or if you add one and all of the baby/kid stuff, you've enough space, easy loading, easy driving.  You need to get some long running in for the diesel... the powertrain is great, silky-smooth... easy to park, a great all-rounder.  Comes with those SAV downsides of greater tyre wear and fuel consumption than a 5er equivalent, but also such a great all-rounder.  Comfortable, quiet, grippy, peppy, frugal.  If you want to pinch more pennies, get the 20D.

Thanks for the input. 

I already have a SUV, have had a couple actually and can say they are less practical than a wagon or even a hatch back in many cases, problem is the roof line protruding down at the rear door point, it impedes on ability to load the car .. the same way many "seven seaters" have seats eating into cargo space. 

Dynamically SUV's are compromised also, maybe not a problem for some but I am a little picky, I take the back roads.  You notice how compromised SUV's are when you hop from SUV to car. To argue that they "drive just like a car" is only really just revealing your helmsmanship XP level. The seating position is nice though, easy on the back to get in and out or load the baby, so they do have advantages. 

Basically just want a proper long roof wagon that drives like a car again, I would like something that I actually want to take on road trip. 

14 hours ago, balancerider said:

Wouldn’t rule out a diesel as long as the car will get some decent running (and you can find a 530/535d). 580nm of torque is very nice for shifting 1800kg of wagon. Air suspension liable to need replacement at the age the f11 is now. Expensive options (adaptive suspension / lights / soft close doors) will be expensive to fix if they fail. There is a nice looking 535i LCI in Christchurch but a bit over your budget. 
https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/535i/listing/4391340312

I did spot that, looks nice. Thanks for the input. 

[GorGasm 563]

That black 535i looks nice, maybe a tad pricey but nice.  I was tempted to get a Merc C350e, but was a bit more than I wanted to spend.  I can't wait for the G30 5 series to come down in price, as that has a 530e wagon variant, which is the perfect daily driver in my opinion.

By my calculations diesel is only worth it if you're driving a tank as the break even is about 10l/100km.  If you can get a petrol car that uses less than 10l/100km, especially 91, then you're probably better off.

Edited November 9, 2023 by GorGasm

[Apex 693]

Thanks, I had done a similar comparison, its one of the strong points for the Chrisler product I have is that it makes good power (280hp) from its V6 running regular fuel, compared to say a 2.0T or 1.6T vehicle making less power yet having to run premium. It saved a substantial amount over a year based on 35-40,000km, it sounds better and is simpler in design, ie, less components. It’s the German gearbox that is letting it down, ZF 9 speed FML.

It does seem simple non turbo motors that run on regular are no longer though, well unless you buy a Toyota/Lexus, but what would they know eh.

We have looked at the C350e and 330e or Lexus hybrid but neither made much sense, the technology is already outdated in them and you essentially end up with good car hindered buy a 300kg battery and electric motor nearing the end of life cycle and taking up boot space, I figured I may as well just fill one third of the boot with I-Phone 5’s for the same effect.

If it wasn't for modern safety standards I would likley be happy with one of these.

[balancerider 758]

11 hours ago, GorGasm said:

That black 535i looks nice, maybe a tad pricey but nice.  I was tempted to get a Merc C350e, but was a bit more than I wanted to spend.  I can't wait for the G30 5 series to come down in price, as that has a 530e wagon variant, which is the perfect daily driver in my opinion.

By my calculations diesel is only worth it if you're driving a tank as the break even is about 10l/100km.  If you can get a petrol car that uses less than 10l/100km, especially 91, then you're probably better off.

The battery range on the Merc c350e is utter shite, less than 10km apparently. G series 330/530e seem decent but unless you’re doing mucho km and all short running within battery range it’s never going to pay for the higher purchase price. I think I’d rather emnjoy driving something with an I6 in it (admittedly I don’t do many k and it’s all open road so YMMV). F series 330e doesn’t come as a wagon so that option is out

[GorGasm 563]

Would have thought the c350e had more range? 

And sadly yes the 330e doesn't come in a wagon.  My 330e gets about 25km range which covers everything where I live so I only need to use fuel when I leave town.  When I do leave town it's sipping about 5l/100km and has the performance of a 535i if needed.  Suits me at the moment.

 

[Olaf 3317]

20 hours ago, Apex said:

Thanks for the input. 

I already have a SUV, have had a couple actually and can say they are less practical than a wagon or even a hatch back in many cases, problem is the roof line protruding down at the rear door point, it impedes on ability to load the car .. the same way many "seven seaters" have seats eating into cargo space. 

Dynamically SUV's are compromised also, maybe not a problem for some but I am a little picky, I take the back roads.  You notice how compromised SUV's are when you hop from SUV to car. To argue that they "drive just like a car" is only really just revealing your helmsmanship XP level. The seating position is nice though, easy on the back to get in and out or load the baby, so they do have advantages. 

Basically just want a proper long roof wagon that drives like a car again, I would like something that I actually want to take on road trip. 

I did spot that, looks nice. Thanks for the input. 

I certainly haven't argued they drive like a car - and yes getting into my e60 V8 reaveals the unique compriomises of the X3.  You've carefully not revealed the SUV you hate so much.  Try a BMW SAV - I'd not be caught dead in a Hyundai SUV etc, would rather drive a Camry.

FWIW we started family with a small 5dr hatch, first triip away the car was chock full with baby stuff - we look back and laugh at our inability to judge what was needed.  We added a Maxima when kiddo #2 arrived 21 months later - did family trips away including side-by-side buggy in the boot. 

With the benefit of hindsight the key advantage of an X3 or X5 would be not having to bend down into a car when strapping in a capsule or car seat from another vehicle, or strapping the bundle of joy in (still happening when they're five years old), or loading a pram into the back.

In summary, you're suffering from n00b parent syndrome, and unless you're starting a rugby team soon you don't need a 5er wagon - that's an over-reaction.  

Edited November 10, 2023 by Olaf

[kwhelan 241]

You will probably laugh but seriously take a zb last model euro commodore wagon or hatchback for a test run, massive boot space the 2.0 turbo has ample power and great on fuel and the v6 is really impressive ,alot of car for the money,couple of differing spec and price points  and being euro they actually handle and drive well, reasonably simple to fix and there are parts as they are rebadged opels and buicks

underated and usually laughed off but take one for a drive, theres some good prices and low mileages around, the vxr is awesome and easily outspecs the 5 series

[Apex 693]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:49 AM, kwhelan said:

You will probably laugh but seriously take a zb last model euro commodore wagon or hatchback for a test run, massive boot space the 2.0 turbo has ample power and great on fuel and the v6 is really impressive ,alot of car for the money,couple of differing spec and price points  and being euro they actually handle and drive well, reasonably simple to fix and there are parts as they are rebadged opels and buicks

underated and usually laughed off but take one for a drive, theres some good prices and low mileages around, the vxr is awesome and easily outspecs the 5 series

100% agreed, very tempting, we actually looked at one yesterday, the Calais V model with all options and low kilometers, at circa 30k they are great value. My only concern as it will be like my currant vehicle when something goes wrong, ie, zero dealer support, parts support and limited supply (if any) of trained specialists. Have been through that the past decade with my other cars and its a PITA, especially now its a family vehicle. I don't want the responsibility of that.

Have owned a couple of new Opel's (Holden) in the past, would consider a new one if they imported the wagon and could sell them at a competitive price. 

On 11/11/2023 at 5:26 AM, Olaf said:

I certainly haven't argued they drive like a car - and yes getting into my e60 V8 reaveals the unique compriomises of the X3.  You've carefully not revealed the SUV you hate so much.  Try a BMW SAV - I'd not be caught dead in a Hyundai SUV etc, would rather drive a Camry.

FWIW we started family with a small 5dr hatch, first triip away the car was chock full with baby stuff - we look back and laugh at our inability to judge what was needed.  We added a Maxima when kiddo #2 arrived 21 months later - did family trips away including side-by-side buggy in the boot. 

With the benefit of hindsight the key advantage of an X3 or X5 would be not having to bend down into a car when strapping in a capsule or car seat from another vehicle, or strapping the bundle of joy in (still happening when they're five years old), or loading a pram into the back.

In summary, you're suffering from n00b parent syndrome, and unless you're starting a rugby team soon you don't need a 5er wagon - that's an over-reaction.  

Have only taken day road trips in my 3 door hatch back and we managed fine, even with the dog, so I can make most stuff work. Grew up with a family of five in a small Ford Laser so i'm not unfamiliar with the clown car concept.

Sorry, I did read my comment and can see it may have been misconstrued as aimed loaded, I was just meaning in general people say "drives just like a car", even about ute's..

My cars are non BMW so no need mention them on a BMW Forum, its like revealing you like House music on a forum of hard core rockers, all it does is open yourselves up to ridicule, generally one eyed fans are incapable of using that eye to see things from another persons point of view. 

We looked at a few BMW's on the weekend but all were Jap imports and smelled like cigarette's, non had service records.. will hold out to see a good NZ new car at some point. 

[Apex 693]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:28 PM, GorGasm said:

Would have thought the c350e had more range? 

And sadly yes the 330e doesn't come in a wagon.  My 330e gets about 25km range which covers everything where I live so I only need to use fuel when I leave town.  When I do leave town it's sipping about 5l/100km and has the performance of a 535i if needed.  Suits me at the moment.

 

25km would be fine for most people, us included, I really like that concept, not only does it save on fuel costs it reduces unneeded wear and tear on the ICE motor with repeated cold starts and short distances. Great concept. A shame they don't do a touring. 

 

Regarding performance, what I found was the following, please correct me if I am wrong. 

The 330e can do 0-100 sprints in about the same time, 6 seconds or so. But It can only do it a few times before running out of "electric motor assistance", and at that point its a 0-100 in 9-10 second car.

Same for a back road blast, if you were to leave Bombay and drive "enthusiastically" or "performance", you would have no "hybrid assistance" by the time you hit Mercer and essentially be driving a 330i with three Samoans in the back. 

A 535i on the other hand can floor it all day with consistent performance and its only hinderance is having to recharge for 5 min every 400km. 

 

[balancerider 758]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:13 AM, Apex said:

We looked at a few BMW's on the weekend but all were Jap imports and smelled like cigarette's, non had service records.. will hold out to see a good NZ new car at some point. 

Very few NZ New F11 535i's. You might have more luck with a 530d, there were a few around for low 20's earlier this year

[GorGasm 563]

2 hours ago, Apex said:

25km would be fine for most people, us included, I really like that concept, not only does it save on fuel costs it reduces unneeded wear and tear on the ICE motor with repeated cold starts and short distances. Great concept. A shame they don't do a touring. 

 

Regarding performance, what I found was the following, please correct me if I am wrong. 

The 330e can do 0-100 sprints in about the same time, 6 seconds or so. But It can only do it a few times before running out of "electric motor assistance", and at that point its a 0-100 in 9-10 second car.

Same for a back road blast, if you were to leave Bombay and drive "enthusiastically" or "performance", you would have no "hybrid assistance" by the time you hit Mercer and essentially be driving a 330i with three Samoans in the back. 

A 535i on the other hand can floor it all day with consistent performance and its only hinderance is having to recharge for 5 min every 400km. 

 

Yep super useful for the 5km round trip for school and the shops. 

I haven't pushed it enough to run out of assistance yet.  Will need to take it out for a proper run .  My 330e isn't an M-sport so it's not really that fun to punt around.

What's gonna grind my gears next year is RUC, which is TBC.

[Apex 693]

 

Road user charges. That is a minefield that is even more complex than taking GST of fruit and vegetables. 

Seems straight forward with a full EV. They use the road they should pay full road users. Simple.

Hybrid with non "EV mode", well they use the road but pay for it with petrol tax like other petrol cars, the leaser amount they use the lesser tax they pay. 

Plug in hybrid, complicated due to variability of millage done in EV mode. Easy solution would be to somehow deduct additional road charges any time the ICE is running as so you are not double dipping. I would think they would need you to keep a log book as you do if your a farmer or how they used to do back with diesel when RUC were introduced. 

Will be a sh*t show.

 

[Palazzo 477]

I thought they weee looking at dropping some of the various taxes and making all vehicles pay RUC?

[Apex 693]

2 hours ago, Palazzo said:

I thought they weee looking at dropping some of the various taxes and making all vehicles pay RUC?

Would make sense.

Just include it when you pay your registration. I say base it on weight, say $1 per KG per year divided by millage traveled. 

I'm no engineer, but I would say the heavier the vehicle the more damage it does to the road, it would also incentivize people away from Ute's and SUV's and make Lotus an appealing proposition once again. 

[Palazzo 477]

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132900566/all-vehicles-to-move-to-road-user-charges-under-national-including-evs
 

Weight is already in it (sort of), below 3500kg. Most EVs (and most modern cars) are appallingly heavy anyway. My first car weighed about 840kg, my X5 about 2200.

[Apex 693]

14 hours ago, Palazzo said:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/132900566/all-vehicles-to-move-to-road-user-charges-under-national-including-evs
 

Weight is already in it (sort of), below 3500kg. Most EVs (and most modern cars) are appallingly heavy anyway. My first car weighed about 840kg, my X5 about 2200.

Your first car has now been reclaimed by the earth and had the structural rigidity of a tissue box also. 

It is logical, the tax I mean, it could even incentivize people to ride motorbikes or scooters also if registration was next to nothing. sh*t, they may even walk 600m to the shops! 

Take 70c off per litre of petrol and add the road user tax on when you pay your registration, seems simple. Will be like the UK where it costs you thousands to drive your car each year. 

It  will also help out the "he is probable just trying to feed his family'" shoplifting class who don’t register their vehicles anyways, what’s the point, run it into the ground and a new one will appear eventually.

Also good if you own an old car.

The future is bright, I’m getting the old Merc, will run it on chip fat and disconnect the speedometer, its so slow you don’t need it anyway.