Olaf

missed out by a day or two, damn.

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Edited by Olaf
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4 hours ago, Olaf said:

so I was out today and looked around at a car yard.  salesman convinced me to drive e61 525i MSport LCI.  Not enough power.  Handling and active steering good.   "Elimination".

We looked at other options.  Their X5 3.0D was too pricey for me.  No 530 in Motorsport trim, no 550i's.

Wildcard:  Mercedes E550 AMG.  I drove it.  I luuuuuuuuuved the V8, it was exceptional.  The brakes were pretty good.  What I couldn't get past, despite playing with electronic damping control, was it was floaty, like a boat. I couldn't get past that.  But hell, what a car.  60k kms, brand new rotors and pads, Michelin PS3's, clean and tidy.  Nope, can't go there.

So, I continue on. It's starting to polarise:  looking at 530i touring, 550i touring, or X5 3.0D - examining the tipping points between lower mileage and lower c of g, vs SAV and higher miles, higher price.  

Interesting journey.  Sorry if this is boring of frustrating for you guys, I don't buy new cars often.

One of my biggest complaints is how eager my X5 is to downshift and 'race car!' Even out of sports mode. It actually makes the car a bit more ruggard and agricultural in the way it feels when in reality the engine has loads of torque and power, espically around town. You can all rag on me for being a nana! 

That's where I think the Mercs really come into their own, especially if you can get the seven speed box like my old C Class had. But they are big and floaty feeling. 

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Yes plus one on the Merc 7 speed, lovely box.

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On 3/8/2017 at 6:05 PM, 3pedals said:

X5 is a great open road family car in diesel, forget the arguments about it taking 70,000km to recoup the additional costs, from Day one the running costs are about half a comparable vehicle i.e a 2.2 tonne freight hauler.

We have had our for 6 years and still enjoy driving it - out handles a lot of average / large cars   and doesn't pack a sad when you load it up.

 

On 3/8/2017 at 9:42 PM, 3pedals said:

X5 diesel is your friend Olaf - room for growing teenagers ( we have 3!!) one is "topping out" at about 176cm  and the other two are heading for 199cm

Running costs and services costs are fine / less than the V8 petrols  and fewer issues than the V8's-

All X5's eat tyres so plan for a new set every 18-25,000 km unless you don't value wet traction in which case the hard as nails variety stretch a bit further.

Running costs for an X5 - fuel and servicing - needn't be prohibitively expensive and could easily be comparable to a 5-series wagon.

Tyres is something I was thinking about this morning.

A Michelin for an X5 in a stock size (255/55-18) runs to over $600 a corner, and would likely need replacing more often than they would on a 5-series. 19" tyres are over $700 and I stopped looking at that point. (20s and 21s are available if you want them.)

I had a quick look at prices (same site, etc) for an E61. The 'vanilla' size for a 530i comes in at around $300 a corner - half the price of an X5 - and may last longer. They are a 16" tyre and a more likely appropriate 17" tyre (as found on the 530d) is around $350. Even a 245/40-18 Pilot 4 (no idea how good they are) is little more than $350.

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17 and 18 is the sweet spot for tyres price wise, move to 19 and things go up noticeably. As to fuel the X5 is a blunt shape and that combined with the extra weight and parasitic drag of the 4wd system will cost you at the pump. I just compare my wife's old company car, a toyota Aurion, vs my Toyota Highlander, same engine but an extra 350kg, 4wd and a brick like aerodynamic profile mean economy goes from a real world 8.7l/100 to 12.3l/100. You can't  beat the laws of physics, hold out for a decent 5 series, if you like driving it will be so much more rewarding. 

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Latest test:  This morning I drove an '07 X5 4.8l 7 seater, 108kms on the clock.  Nice donk.  SUBLIME transmission.  I was fine with the width of it, easy to place the car in the lane.  Drove around typical suburban roads... what distrurbed me was how much it pitches around.  Dive on the front under braking is huge.  Active steering - excellent.  Highway - excellent, though it still pitches around a bit.  Easy to drive rapidly.  Excellent cruise control.  Brakes very good.  Orbital sander marks in the chrome trim on the kidney grilles and black silicone sealer where it shouldn'be under the hood, bolstered with generally poorly-groomed appearance led me to beleive this was a sub-par example.  15l/100kms - not so keen on that.  A 550i would do a few litres better, I think.   John, what's (Mark) BoyT getting out of his 550i with his real-world daily drive these days?

Conclusion:  need to drive an X5 Diesel with sport suspension before X5 elimination.

Status: e61 or e60 is looking most likely, must be Msport, and either 3.0l petrol, 4.8l petrol, or 3l diesel.  X5D ///Msport remains a contender.

Edited by Olaf

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17 minutes ago, Olaf said:

Latest test:  what distrurbed me was how much it pitches around.  Dive on the front under braking is huge

We've driven a Range Rover Sport which handled like a good, large sportscar. I suspect the difference between the RR Sport and it's less sporty brethren would be similar to that imparted by an MSport X5.

The LR Discovery Sport was another thing entirely. Seemed to bring the best of all worlds into a single package.

We can't afford one, but it's good to know these things. :)

 

Edited by gjm
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For what it's worth the only regret I have for buying an X5 for our family of 5 is that I didn't buy one years ago. I'm 197cm, wife is 180, 16, 13 and 9yo are 180, 178 and 148. We struggled along in the e39 because I hate the idea of a Chelsea tractor. But we were just too big.

I've done 6's, v8's and v12's, saloons and tourings, in e32's, e38's and e39's and in the end bought an e53 3.0l petrol X5 and I don't regret the decision at all. I have the 535is if I want to go for a fang, but when we are 5 up, filled to the brim to go away I want security and cruising ability. The X5 does it without breaking a sweat.

As for tyres, you just need to know where to look. A got four brand new Continental CrossContact UHP in 18" for $800 all up. We've done about 30k mainly motorway driving and they still have 3-4 mm. I've thrown it over the Paekok hill plenty of times and never had any trouble in the corners, they have been excellent.

It was serviced for the first time in our 18 months of ownership by Mike Page in Kapiti on Thursday. Full inspection II was just under 1k. Including new plugs, the odd belt, brake fluid, oil, all filters etc. I didn't think that was too bad.

My budget was much lower than yours but the 3.0l petrol was still 2/3rds of the price of a diesel and they'd all done twice the mileage. Maybe I was missing in my sums something but I couldn't justify the initial price difference.

I've just remembered your comments about the 3.0 being underpowered and thirty. We average 11.2 l/100k. I don't think that's bad at all, we don't drive it around town, but I don't remember getting anywhere near that my m62 e38. Perhaps the newer petrols you are looking at are far better. Cruising on the open road is easy as is overtaking. I appreciate your friend regretting it, but not me.

I would have loved an e70 but given how cheap the e53 was, it meant I could keep the 535is for the weekends.

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I ended up importing tyres in from the US, about half the price. I went with a Hankook SUV tyre about $1100 all up for the four of them purchased and to the depo for me to pick up. They are a non runflat and good for touring. 

In terms of handling, I notice very little difference between my E70 and a standard European sedan, I've just clicked over 80k in mine. They should not pitch to the point that it worries you. I drove a full Range Rover supercharged when looking and even with around 85kms on the clock it was very very boaty, the X5 is very different. 

Most BMW and Mercs I've owned needed significant suspension renewal at 100-120ks, so you might be feeling it there in that example. 

Edited by NZ BMW

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Last time I spoke to Mark about this he said around 11l/100km. My M54 530 was around 9.5. N52 and 53 engines improve on that by a small amount. Whats nice about the N53 version is 200kw, they are deceptively quick.

 

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i bought my e70 3d Msport with 20ks on the clock and have kept a record of the servicing to date incl replacement of tyres etc. it has gone through 2 sets of tyres and 2x changes of brakes (rotors & pads)

All servicing done at Auckland City BMW with 1x brake change at BM Workshop as BMW could not fit me in. Cost to date for the last 6 years has come to $10,500. 
its an awesome truck that i will probably drive to the ground, albeit being tempted a number of times to upgrade to the new F15! Just cant justify the depreciation and the fact that its never let us down!

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54 minutes ago, isis said:

i bought my e70 3d Msport with 20ks on the clock and have kept a record of the servicing to date incl replacement of tyres etc. it has gone through 2 sets of tyres and 2x changes of brakes (rotors & pads)

All servicing done at Auckland City BMW with 1x brake change at BM Workshop as BMW could not fit me in. Cost to date for the last 6 years has come to $10,500. 
its an awesome truck that i will probably drive to the ground, albeit being tempted a number of times to upgrade to the new F15! Just cant justify the depreciation and the fact that its never let us down!

Do you mind if I ask what the brake job was like in terms of cost? I think I'll have to do mine soon... trying to work out if I bring in the parts or not. 

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Olaf, pitching / diving is not a trait I would associate with an X5  Ours is a Sportpac and does have Bilsteins and H&R lowered springs in it so it is even firmer than a standard Sportpac- occasionally a bit harsh.

Cross contact UHP's have proven to be the best all round tyre  typically $1,600 to $2,200 for a set of 18's  or $1,800 to $2,400 for staggered 19's

Nice buy that man at 8 hundy!!!!

They are fearsome if well set up and you do want to push it  - 4 wheel drifts at the (100k) speed limit in corners sign posted at 65kmh 

P.S our diesel has averaged 8.6l/100k over the last 295,000 km and  much of that has been loaded to the gunwales on a road trip

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Our 550 E61 average about 12l per 100, best open road distance we got was 10l

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The 3 X5,s I drove were very good as far as SUV,s go,  better than my Highlander, but only marginally better than a Ford Territory. My Highlander would hose the 6 cylinder petrol e53 sixes in a straight line. All this is academic as a 5 series will accelerate more quickly (same engines) and be quicker through the corners. A sprint across the Rimutakas or Paihiatua track in an X5 will no longer be a fun driving experience it would be in a 5 series.

Edited by Herbmiester
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thanks gents, all excellent input and I feel far more informed.  I'm going to defer X5 acquisition until later in this calendar year, or this time next year (end of tax year) so that I can increase my sample size anf budget.  I'm going to concentrate on e60/e61 options as a short-to-mid term solution.

545i?  550i?  Is Motorsport a must for me?  Do I need a touring?  and what price/option factor along this continuum makes best sense for me right now?

Answers will appear next few days, I'm checking some out today.

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Well, if you go for the 550i you get the same engine as in the X5 V8 but it's not the de-tuned one. Why they did that is beyond me. 

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535i.

Saloon or Touring - your call.

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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 10:44 AM, Herbmiester said:

 As to fuel the X5 is a blunt shape and that combined with the extra weight and parasitic drag of the 4wd system will cost you at the pump. I just compare my wife's old company car, a toyota Aurion, vs my Toyota Highlander, same engine but an extra 350kg, 4wd and a brick like aerodynamic profile mean economy goes from a real world 8.7l/100 to 12.3l/100. You can't  beat the laws of physics, hold out for a decent 5 series, if you like driving it will be so much more rewarding. 

This is not  a fair comparison because  pretty sure the Aurion is front wheel drive and FWD  drive train losses are less than a rear wheel drive (no 90 degree bend) secondly the X5 runs an open diff platform and uses the ABS to control wheel spin which means there  is less drag in the drive train and finally the transfer case has a clutch  for controlling drive to the front reducing power pushed to the front under normal conditions reducing power loss.

Our results : 3 litre X5 diesel 8.6l/100 -  Mitsi 2.8 diesel 10.5 l/100k  - Prado 3 litre diesel 13l/100k  that also happens to be the order of performance.

The X5 doesn't beat the laws of physics - it optimises them - battery in the spare wheel well , low down - even weight distribution - weight between the axles all the usual BMW efficient dynamic  engineering you would expect - compare this to my Prado which has two honking great 12 volt batteries - one behind each headlight - couldn't get much higher or further forward of the axle if you tried.

Olaf , have fun with what ever you get

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3 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Our results : 3 litre X5 diesel 8.6l/100 -  Mitsi 2.8 diesel 10.5 l/100k  - Prado 3 litre diesel 13l/100k  that also happens to be the order of performance.

Olaf , have fun with what ever you get

now that is an interesting comparison.  All broadly the same purpose (Diesel SUVs with vaying degrees of offload capability), and broadly varying fuel efficiency... and indeed, refinement.

I think comparing a diesel e60 to a diesel X5 will still reveal around 1.8-2 litres/100 km advantage (lower Cd, lower weight, less drag on drivetrain).  But then I'm not 100% on fuel at any rate. 

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Ron no comparisons are completely fair but as these cars both use the same engines and the highlander is a Camry/Aurion on stilts with a rear diff grafted on its about as real world as it gets. As to the laws of physics the X5 is heavier, has more drag and open diffs or not there are two as opposed to one. Highlander uses open diffs and electronics as well, and the 2wd Highlander was 1l per 100km better. Even subaru admit that that AWD compromises fuel economy as opposed to 2WD. The Ford Territory had rwd and awd options again running open diffs. The difference was 0.6l per 100km. So as efficient as you may think you x5 is, the laws of physics are definitely in play here.

I would also say the Prado is not a fair comparison as it has actual off road ability. hench its 2 batteries the X5 is a gravel road cruiser and real mud rocks etc should be avoided.

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Suspect a "moderators editing" is skewing the discussion some what: ???  to reiterate:

It's the application of physics that counts ; BMW does it well others do it less well - the result is the X5  out handles other such vehicles easily and with "room to spare". The comparison is reasonable within reasonable boundaries as 90% of most 4Wds are driven on sealed roads around town X'5 specifically are are probably closer to 99% .

The location of the batteries in the Prado also affects off road performance - it makes it worse - particularly on slippery surfaces like grass and mud as the front end lets go really easily on cross slopes.

Olaf, Yes I would expect you could do better in terms of economy with an E60 diesel but as you point out that only carries so much weight

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1 hour ago, Olaf said:

now that is an interesting comparison.  All broadly the same purpose (Diesel SUVs with vaying degrees of offload capability), and broadly varying fuel efficiency... and indeed, refinement.

I think comparing a diesel e60 to a diesel X5 will still reveal around 1.8-2 litres/100 km advantage (lower Cd, lower weight, less drag on drivetrain).  But then I'm not 100% on fuel at any rate. 

Yup and all are manuals and have at least 200,000km on the clock and both the Pajero and X5 do similar duties.  Pajero is 95 and Prado 97 so similar technology X5 makes  a  leap with 60% more power and 80% more torque.

Pajero gets a slight advantage because it is 2/4Wd drive and the other two are full time 4WD

 

Edited by 3pedals

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I suspect you are right re moderators, would be interesting to know why? Anyhow The Prado's battery location is irrelevant, as mentioned it is a far more capable off road vehicle than an X5, but yes an X5 is far more capable on road.Not an apples to apples comparison. On road a 5 series is better yet again. While I can see you are enamored with your X5  a better comparison would be a Touareg a Q7/5, Cayenne or an ML even a Territory can can match an e53/70 dynamically. But comparing the handling of SUv's is a bit of a joke as even the best are dynamically well behind a good car like a 5 series and that is really the point here. Olaf enjoys driving and I just dont see how he will get that satisfaction in a boat like SUV.

Edited by Herbmiester
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