More Dog and Lemon bullshit

[Phil-540i 166]

I'm just putting another perspective on it - you're right in that generally in NZ, people think a year 2000 car is 'modern'. It would probably amaze you though in the amount of drivers we have, that can't even identify if the vehicle they are driving is equipped with ABS, & what the purpose of ABS actually is........... So the newer technology from that as a 'basic', they really have no understanding of IMO........

Its like with - how often do we see vehicles go into a corner too hot, because some distracted muppet 'forgot' they were on cruise control..............??

IMO, for too long in NZ it has been promoted that if you don't 'speed', don't drink & drive, & have a modern vehicle that crash tests well, & that is equipped with all the 'safety features', then all will be ok for you as a driver......

Part of the problem now is we have sober non-speeding drivers (say at 99kph for arguments sake), driving to the 'speedo', rather than the conditions they are seeing out the windscreen, thinking that if they hit something (or are hit), all will be fine because their 'safe car' will protect them, where reality is seldom that.....

The younger generation coming through, getting licences now - we have tried to protect them from being hurt, from learning things the 'hard way' like we did. They have grown up on Playstations etc, where if something goes wrong on 'Need for Speed', you just hit the restart button. Reality is we have thus created an artificial synthetic environment as such, because in 'real life', its not like that - when their XXXXXX (rice rocket) goes sideways in the wet, theres no 'reset' button, & all too often, it just becomes 'Game Over' for them..........much like on the games its ok to 'out-run' Police, & achievable - not in 'real world' though.

Know your vehicle. Have great driving skills. Consistantly make great decisions while driving, & focus 100% on the driving of the vehicle - not in-cab distractions. Drive assertively, & defensively. Drive to the conditions. Drive to survive.....

IMO, that's the stuff that counts a bit more than whether the vehicle has ETC / TC etc or not............

[Phil-540i 166]

Lols - that could be the biggest statement you've made where I've agreed with all of it Ron..........

Yes, 'spike in steering wheel' concept is a bit rough, but hey, teaches 'self preservation' through own actions as a driver, & teaches 'defensive' as well, in terms of keeping a bit of a focus on what the other stuff around ya is doing.........

Yes, our road toll is down, which is a good thing, no argument from me there. BUT, as you've pointed out, & its seldom noted or referred to, whats our crash rate / serious injury statistics like??

ACC stats consistently show the 'cost' of crashes has risen over the years, because the bonus of airbags, crush zones etc, sees more people surviving crashes than wouldn't have been the case say a decade ago.............

[lord_jagganath 421]

Too many people driving on meds, sleepy, and distracted.

[Allanw 1071]

If you want to be engaged in driving defensively, try driving our Ford...

29 Model A

It's biggest safety feature - it has brakes... just. The biggest "Modern" safety improvement added... we added indicators, a left brake light, and a high mount brake light.

My Beetle is marginally better, but it's faster and handles better (probably as well as a Hyundai i30!)

[MD13 494]

With regard to OP - The guy that writes Dog and Lemon is in it to make money. People with no car knowledge buy it and are entertained by the bullsh!t inside and are thus happy. Any reference to actual facts is beside the point.

As to the rest of this thread :-) People these days don't need to understand cars or the basics of handling etc. Technology keeps improving and providing features to enable drivers to get from point A to point B with the least amount of hassle or skill. In the old days a driver was more likely to try servicing his\her car as it was simply (sarcasm here) mechanical. People actually joined motor clubs and did associated events - hill climbs etc. As the cars in the day included average handling, weak brakes and slippery tires a driver had to concentrate a little more.

Now boy\girl hops in mum's car with it's auto gearbox, power steering, ABS, cruise control, traction control etc etc and just presses the 'Go' pedal or the 'Stop' pedal... Hell the car might even brake for them if they're about to run into the car in front and auto park when they get to the shops!

Edited November 4, 2013 by MD13

[Phil-540i 166]

With regard to OP - The guy that writes Dog and Lemon is in it to make money. People with no car knowledge buy it and are entertained by the bullsh!t inside and are thus happy. Any reference to actual facts is beside the point.

As to the rest of this thread :-) People these days don't need to understand cars or the basics of handling etc. Technology keeps improving and providing features to enable drivers to get from point A to point B with the least amount of hassle or skill. In the old days a driver was more likely to try servicing his\her car as it was simply (sarcasm here) mechanical. People actually joined motor clubs and did associated events - hill climbs etc. As the cars in the day included average handling, weak brakes and slippery tires a driver had to concentrate a little more.

Now boy\girl hops in mum's car with it's auto gearbox, power steering, ABS, cruise control, traction control etc etc and just presses the 'Go' pedal or the 'Stop' pedal... Hell the car might even brake for them if they're about to run into the car in front and auto park when they get to the shops!

I like what you've said here but this bit - "People these days don't need to understand cars or the basics of handling etc" - IMO they still 'need' to understand all that, they just don't though.......

I still service my own vehicles once they're outa warranty........it fascinates me these-days as to how many guys are out there that don't know how to even check engine oil, change a flat tyre, etc........

[MD13 494]

^ Fully agree people should have a greater understanding - just saying tech has increased the usability factor on cars to the point where it's almost too simple to operate.

As an example - I've lost track of the number of people I have talked to that have said they can't drive a manual.

[Apex 693]

Once again I think we are discounting the drivers ability, the ESP system and ABS in most cars will only intervene when we do something very wrong and it will be felt, some of you seem to think people drive around with the car doing the driving for them completely oblivious to how to drive car, some cars wont have the stability control kick in their entire lives.

I agree most divers suck compared to us ( ) but most of the time they are going way too slow not to fast.

And no sh*t 80% or more of accidents happen when people cross the white line, that's like saying 85% of people who brake their arm fall over.

[Phil-540i 166]

All good stuff, I'm grinning away reading!! True what you're saying Graham, but, to the point its now getting ridiculous on how low the parameters are being set on some ETC / ESP systems, in order to cater to the driver that is the dumbest / weakest link. As an example - new Hilux 4WD, is virtually un-driveable on gravel roads, at any sort of 'speed', with the whole equation worsening if theres any sort of trailer behind it - any older Hilux would run rings around it in terms of driveability. Theres been so many howls of protest from guys that have traded in say, 2010 model ones on new ones, that Toyota now has a program for reflashing the computer to 'raise the levels' on where it kicks in....... A case of a step forwards 'safety wise' maybe, but 2 steps backwards & sideways at the same time on vehicle usability...

[Apex 693]

Can they not just switch it off?

[huff3r 347]

Can they not just switch it off?

A lot of vehicles don't have an on/off switch for tsc/esc

[Allanw 1071]

It's a lot better to have the electronics on... but to have them work OK. I had a mate who took his Hilux back for exactly the reason you said. It was actually dangerous at times, because you simply couldn't go fast, and used up all your concentration trying to keep the thing moving. Being able to alter the settings on the fly would be great!

[Phil-540i 166]

It can be switched off on a Hilux, if you hold the switch in continuously for 5(secs), hold your tongue the right way, align the planets, & remember that it switches back 'on' again every-time you flick the key....they're a dog of a thing in standard form though IMO. And it restricts changing tyre sizes, installing lift kits etc as well, making them now about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike in 4WD conditions.....

[mjh 26]

It can be switched off on a Hilux, if you hold the switch in continuously for 5(secs), hold your tongue the right way, align the planets, & remember that it switches back 'on' again every-time you flick the key....they're a dog of a thing in standard form though IMO. And it restricts changing tyre sizes, installing lift kits etc as well, making them now about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike in 4WD conditions.....

Clive Matthew Wilson would think an ashtray on a motorbike was a good idea and a strong selling point.

[hybrid 1043]

I disagree, there are no new cars that are worse than their 10 yea old equivalent, its driver aids giving a free pass for bad drivers more like.

I would post a challenge even. I will drive a Hyundai I-Load van on a back road and you see if you can keep with it in a modest medium sized sedan from the 90's.

Really ..... really ???

There are sooooooo many shitty little cars on the road with this for rear suspension. Lift off over steer and understeer sh*t boxes. They all claim "5 star" safety ratings because they have Electronic Stability Control to get around bad design. Not saying everything is a race car, but beam axle is the devil.

[Phil-540i 166]

Its interesting in that part of the criteria for NCAP 5 star rating, it MUST have ESC...........

[FIAT 131R 223]

Interesting view point.

IMHO Its not about the cars at all, most modern cars handle well if driven properly, tyre technology, increased stiffness of chassis and advances in suspension makes this so. Its about the drivers.

I am all for stability control, they do work and to say they don't is just ignorant, the modern ones are especially clever, I have been sat in the passenger seat of my old E60 when the driver was not paying attention and tried to take a 65kph corner at 100Kph, the car understeered wide onto the wrong side of the road where the stability control kicked in, at the same time the driver tried to counter correct and the stability control stopped the car from tank slapping back the other way, if the car did not have the stability control we would have under steered off the road and tested the secondary safety systems!

My response was In regards to the "people are going to die" comment mad by captain douche bag, I would personally just like to see some credit or responsibility given back to the operator of the vehicle is all, to say people are going to die because the car has no systems is just stupid PC nanny state bullshit.

You say people who think stability control doesn't work are ignorant. I think it is you that is ignorant. Stability control nearly killed me. I was driving on a gravel road and got into a slide. I grew up on gravel roads and gave the throttle a bit of pressure and the wheel a little opposite lock. The Stability Control literally kicked my foot off the accelerator and did the opposite of what was needed. After stability control was "helping" me going from side to side all over the road I was so close to hitting the bank head on I was just about to let go the wheel to save my wrists. Luckily I had scrubbed off enough speed to disengage the stability control and buried the acceleartor and gave it heaps of opposite lock. The arse end of the car just touched the grass on the bank and I was out of trouble. Now when I am on gravel I switch the stability control off. I think I have driven close to 2 million km and rarely have I ever slid sideways unless I wanted to. Black ice is one of the areas I have slid on and stability control won't help you then. If you know how to drive on gravel roads stability control is bloody dangerous.

[FIAT 131R 223]

With regard to OP - The guy that writes Dog and Lemon is in it to make money. People with no car knowledge buy it and are entertained by the bullsh!t inside and are thus happy. Any reference to actual facts is beside the point.

As to the rest of this thread :-) People these days don't need to understand cars or the basics of handling etc. Technology keeps improving and providing features to enable drivers to get from point A to point B with the least amount of hassle or skill. In the old days a driver was more likely to try servicing his\her car as it was simply (sarcasm here) mechanical. People actually joined motor clubs and did associated events - hill climbs etc. As the cars in the day included average handling, weak brakes and slippery tires a driver had to concentrate a little more.

Now boy\girl hops in mum's car with it's auto gearbox, power steering, ABS, cruise control, traction control etc etc and just presses the 'Go' pedal or the 'Stop' pedal... Hell the car might even brake for them if they're about to run into the car in front and auto park when they get to the shops!

I agree. The people in "authority" are now so bloody stupid I saw a Road Code where the acceleartor is referred to as the "trigger". Unfortunately no one has shot them yet.

[Apex 693]

You say people who think stability control doesn't work are ignorant. I think it is you that is ignorant. Stability control nearly killed me. I was driving on a gravel road and got into a slide. I grew up on gravel roads and gave the throttle a bit of pressure and the wheel a little opposite lock. The Stability Control literally kicked my foot off the accelerator and did the opposite of what was needed. After stability control was "helping" me going from side to side all over the road I was so close to hitting the bank head on I was just about to let go the wheel to save my wrists. Luckily I had scrubbed off enough speed to disengage the stability control and buried the acceleartor and gave it heaps of opposite lock. The arse end of the car just touched the grass on the bank and I was out of trouble. Now when I am on gravel I switch the stability control off. I think I have driven close to 2 million km and rarely have I ever slid sideways unless I wanted to. Black ice is one of the areas I have slid on and stability control won't help you then. If you know how to drive on gravel roads stability control is bloody dangerous.

Yes I am ignorant.

I drive on a lot of gravel and if I wish to drive fast I simply turn it off, your average driver does not drive on gravel let alone drive fast on gravel and I would argue that if you were driving slowly on gravel as most inexperienced drivers do you will have no problems with the driving aids.

Directional tyres are hopeless on gravel too, should we start fitting cross ply to all cars because a very small percentage of drivers will drive down a gravel road?

Glad to see you found the off switch, maybe education is lacking, maybe people need to get a better understanding of how their machines operate?

Really ..... really ???

There are sooooooo many shitty little cars on the road with this for rear suspension. Lift off over steer and understeer sh*t boxes. They all claim "5 star" safety ratings because they have Electronic Stability Control to get around bad design. Not saying everything is a race car, but beam axle is the devil.

A lot of cars have a rear beam, its compact, light, simple in operation and cheap to manufacture meaning it is fitted to economy cars.

Both my rally car and road car have a rear beam and they handle ok, the lift off over steer is not for everyone but once you learn to drive it you can take advantage of quick turn in and balance on the throttle, cant say I experience undresteer.

Once again it comes down to how the driver is operating the vehicle, if you are driving normally you wont have issue.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

Its interesting in that part of the criteria for NCAP 5 star rating, it MUST have ESC...........

Also interesting to watch the actual crash tests. Because electronic wizardry counts towards the final score, there are cars out there with a lower star rating that actually fare much better in a crash than a 5 star vehicle in the same class.

[Apex 693]

Yes, the on paper points are not that fair and the system needs revising in places, ANCAP are the worst and unfortunately that is where a lot of our products safety standards are tested, local Toyota product for example, I guaranty the Japanese Hilux does not have stability control.

A certain manufacturer has just released a new model that scored 5 stars in Europe setting a new class standard but when tested in Australia was marked down for not having rear airbags, they simply marked it down looking at the sales brochure's feature list and did not account for the fact it might not need them due to the cars safety cell design and advanced curtain bags.

I would never take ANCAP's results seriously, its probably half the reason some vehicles have stupid features built in, my car for example has a chime that kicks in when I don't have my set belt on and chimes louder and louder until I put it on, this is annoying in a car park or when you are reversing... also has a stupid speed limit programmer where you can cap the cars speed.. have not used it once but it gives it "safety points"

[dr_kahu 8]

I always considered D&L to be 'funny pages' material i.e next to the garfield cartoon in the paper. Lo and behold I saw the drongo being interviewed by some news network for something. Might as well cite a wikipedia article in a PhD thesis.

[Phil-540i 166]

Yes, the on paper points are not that fair and the system needs revising in places, ANCAP are the worst and unfortunately that is where a lot of our products safety standards are tested, local Toyota product for example, I guaranty the Japanese Hilux does not have stability control.

A certain manufacturer has just released a new model that scored 5 stars in Europe setting a new class standard but when tested in Australia was marked down for not having rear airbags, they simply marked it down looking at the sales brochure's feature list and did not account for the fact it might not need them due to the cars safety cell design and advanced curtain bags.

I would never take ANCAP's results seriously, its probably half the reason some vehicles have stupid features built in, my car for example has a chime that kicks in when I don't have my set belt on and chimes louder and louder until I put it on, this is annoying in a car park or when you are reversing... also has a stupid speed limit programmer where you can cap the cars speed.. have not used it once but it gives it "safety points"

Part of the problem is vehicles are becoming a 'world-wide market' spec, & I'm confident the Japanese Hilux DOES have stability control. All our imported utes with 'traditional Japanese names' - Hilux, Ranger, BT-50, Colorado, Triton are built in Thailand, & its been that way for ages. (Since 2005 on Hilux anyway). Some Navara models are sourced outside Thailand, to here, via Spain manufacture - Landcruiser is still made in Japan (Yay!!!!).

The ANCAP ratings are certainly being taken in high regard in terms of H & S for work vehicles - as an example BHP now have a policy that unless a vehicle is for 'specific special purpose', all new fleet purchases are to be 5 star rating............

[emac 9]

I bet he is really really short as well as an ignorant pseudo spokesman for the anti car lobby!