Electric cars emit 50% less greenhouse gas than diesel, study finds

[Gabe79 410]

We've had some discussions in the past about the total emissions impact of EVs versus ICEs... This study is very interesting.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/25/electric-cars-emit-50-less-greenhouse-gas-than-diesel-study-finds

“On average, electric vehicles will emit half the CO2 emissions of a diesel car by 2030, including the manufacturing emissions,”
 

[coop 261]

Would mainstream media print anything to the contray? Would 'researchers' who are likely in the govt pocket come up with different results that don't tow the official line on climate change? 

It would be more environmentally friendly to run my current 15 year old car for another 5-7 years which returns 8.5l/100km highway than to increase/encourage consumerism and drop $40-50k on an EV for a five year cycle.

 

Just more wealthy, white western liberals telling us what we need to do as a way of virtue signalling to feed their false moral conscience when it comes to enviro/social issues. 

They will happily guilt trip the majority of the population on green issues while they have no dramas shitting into clean drinking water, using excessive amounts of water (three showers/day, two laundry cycles/day, watering their garden on their high six figure - seven figure quarter acre section), daily consumption of meat and dairy (demand for intensive farming), two or more late/new vehicles per household, jet setting on holiday every 6 mth - 1 year etc. 

These clowns are the epitome of hypocrisy and fail to put their money where their mouth is, but expects everyone else to tow their line. 

 

 

 

[aja540i 1906]

Not sure who "these clowns" are, but my decision to buy an ev was 90% financial, any environmental benefit is a bonus. Of course the financial benefit only applies the first time you switch from an ice car to an ev, but for me it means the vehicle has a payback period of approx 4 years. Also the environmental argument depends largely on where the vehicle is used and how the electricity is genereated, NZ is a special place that generates most of its electricity from renewables and imports 100% of its petrol, so I'm happy with my decision, everyone else can make their own!

[gjm 3258]

If Honda will make the e-cars they've recently shown, at a reasonable price, we'd probably buy one.

[allan 295]

Like most things they improve as time goes on the battery tech still has a long way to go before a reasonable range can be obtained from these vehicles Having the necessary infrastructure in place would go a long way to help also most places in NZ are not to far from one another.  As for the renewable energy part not so sure would some one like to define what it means?.

[Gabe79 410]

3 hours ago, coop said:

Would mainstream media print anything to the contray? Would 'researchers' who are likely in the govt pocket come up with different results that don't tow the official line on climate change? 

It would be more environmentally friendly to run my current 15 year old car for another 5-7 years which returns 8.5l/100km highway than to increase/encourage consumerism and drop $40-50k on an EV for a five year cycle.

Just more wealthy, white western liberals telling us what we need to do as a way of virtue signalling to feed their false moral conscience when it comes to enviro/social issues. 

They will happily guilt trip the majority of the population on green issues while they have no dramas shitting into clean drinking water, using excessive amounts of water (three showers/day, two laundry cycles/day, watering their garden on their high six figure - seven figure quarter acre section), daily consumption of meat and dairy (demand for intensive farming), two or more late/new vehicles per household, jet setting on holiday every 6 mth - 1 year etc. 

These clowns are the epitome of hypocrisy and fail to put their money where their mouth is, but expects everyone else to tow their line. 

I'm not sure we read the same article here, but ok...  The study is by a university, which, generally, is an institution that doesn't employ clowns, I think you misread and thought this was a circus? They show their data in the study, you're welcome to dispute the data if you'd like. 

As an example, I'll dispute the data you state about an EV costing $40-50k. I paid $10k for my used Leaf.

3 hours ago, aja540i said:

Not sure who "these clowns" are, but my decision to buy an ev was 90% financial, any environmental benefit is a bonus. Of course the financial benefit only applies the first time you switch from an ice car to an ev, but for me it means the vehicle has a payback period of approx 4 years. Also the environmental argument depends largely on where the vehicle is used and how the electricity is genereated, NZ is a special place that generates most of its electricity from renewables and imports 100% of its petrol, so I'm happy with my decision, everyone else can make their own!

Same same here. We went from $100-200/month to no noticeable difference in our electricity bill. The car pays for itself eventually. No ICE can have that said for it...

1 hour ago, allan said:

Like most things they improve as time goes on the battery tech still has a long way to go before a reasonable range can be obtained from these vehicles Having the necessary infrastructure in place would go a long way to help also most places in NZ are not to far from one another.  As for the renewable energy part not so sure would some one like to define what it means?.

It means that the emissions go down depending on how clean your energy source is. The 50% argument is made against coal, if your energy sources are clean already, like they are here (and the example given which is roughly comparable is Sweden...) then the decrease can be as much as 85% less emissions in total.

[allan 295]

Thanks, not really what i was meaning.how do you define renewable, i.e. something that can be reused again and again maybe. But how can the wind or water be classed a renewable you are not using the same water or wind  again. Only harnessing the force which each generates at that time then more takes its place. the system relies on a constant flow of water or wind to work.Once it has gone through the turbine and traveled on.that water or wind is lost how can that be called renewable?

[Gabe79 410]

3 minutes ago, allan said:

Thanks, not really what i was meaning.how do you define renewable, i.e. something that can be reused again and again maybe. But how can the wind or water be classed a renewable you are not using the same water or wind  again. Only harnessing the force which each generates at that time then more takes its place. the system relies on a constant flow of water or wind to work.Once it has gone through the turbine and traveled on.that water or wind is lost how can that be called renewable?

Wind turbines usually remain usable in their location for a long time... Water turbines rely on running water. The expectation is that the water will continue running. Another word for 'renewable' (as distinct from fossil fuels, which are finite) is 'sustainable.' It isn't the water, or the wind the pushes the turbine, as such, it's the flow of water, or wind. Nothing is 'used' when wind/water flow through a turbine.

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

Bah,the research is flawed- it doesn't need to be either/or... I'll take a 3.0d X5 and an i8, thanks

 

[Gabe79 410]

10 minutes ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

Bah,the research is flawed- it doesn't need to be either/or... I'll take a 3.0d X5 and an i8, thanks

 

Haha. It's what I do too, but I do see a future where I replace my 530i with a hybrid/EV wagon or some sort, for longer-range driving...

Edited October 26, 2017 by Gabe79

[Michael. 2313]

The way I see it is you need to be like Andrew

M5 V10 Touring = Fun drives

Leaf Battery Car = Boring A-B slog / Save fuel cost

It's a good compromise. 

I'd consider buying a leaf for the same reasons. Makes having a multi cylinder petrol car all the more special to use for fun & pleasure only. 

[Gabe79 410]

11 minutes ago, Michael. said:

The way I see it is you need to be like Andrew

M5 V10 Touring = Fun drives

Leaf Battery Car = Boring A-B slog / Save fuel cost

It's a good compromise. 

I'd consider buying a leaf for the same reasons. Makes having a multi cylinder petrol car all the more special to use for fun & pleasure only. 

If your use case involves round trips of shorter distance than the range of a Leaf (80-125-150km, depending on many factors, not least being how new it is and what the battery capacity is) then a Leaf makes total sense, will save you a lot of money and will add longevity to your precious car's engine too! It's amazing as a short distance car, which is how we use it. My most common 'commute' is to my son's school and back, it's a 4 minute drive each way. It is the worse kind of driving for fuel economy, or engine life and the Leaf doesn't care one iota about those factors.

[zero 1162]

Electric car tech is improving all the time, but I still would never want one.

Eventually we will all be forced to, so I will hold out as long as possible.

[kwhelan 241]

how does one shop second hand then, what is there to look out for ,does the battery have a use by date, is there some untalked about depreciation factor, I know what to look for regarding mileage and engine condition but this is a whole new can of worms that could bite

 

[Gabe79 410]

1 hour ago, kwhelan said:

how does one shop second hand then, what is there to look out for ,does the battery have a use by date, is there some untalked about depreciation factor, I know what to look for regarding mileage and engine condition but this is a whole new can of worms that could bite

 

Almost everything you'd want to know from a NZ context is contained here:

https://samholford.github.io/leafguide/

If you have any questions it doesn't address, I can try to address for you, just ask.

[kiwi535 538]

a

7 hours ago, allan said:

Thanks, not really what i was meaning.how do you define renewable, i.e. something that can be reused again and again maybe. But how can the wind or water be classed a renewable you are not using the same water or wind  again. Only harnessing the force which each generates at that time then more takes its place. the system relies on a constant flow of water or wind to work.Once it has gone through the turbine and traveled on.that water or wind is lost how can that be called renewable?

perhaps we should say  sustainable .But reneawable is true for hydro,because in some ways the water is renewed.Ie the waters that flows down the river to the lake evaperates and falls again as rain in the mountains.....and again...The wind is not renewable but the energy contained within ,or that drives it is sustainable.One day that may change if you beleive some people.

[coop 261]

14 hours ago, aja540i said:

Not sure who "these clowns" are, but my decision to buy an ev was 90% financial, any environmental benefit is a bonus. Of course the financial benefit only applies the first time you switch from an ice car to an ev, but for me it means the vehicle has a payback period of approx 4 years. Also the environmental argument depends largely on where the vehicle is used and how the electricity is genereated, NZ is a special place that generates most of its electricity from renewables and imports 100% of its petrol, so I'm happy with my decision, everyone else can make their own!

Sorry, you may have interpreted that wrong, I'm not calling those who purchase EVs clowns, it is directed at those who are put on a pedestal with a voice telling us what we should do, but are far from doing that themselves -  politicians, uni lecturers/reserchers/gullible students, mainstream media, influential people in larger corporations etc. 

I see regular articles or opinion pieces like this, whether true or not, as a way of planting the seeds in the minds of the public that ICE = bad, and EV = good. Install enough guilt in the population and it will be easier to expect motorists to buy EVs and roll out taxes in the coming years for those who are still using petrol/diesel cars. 

This elitist attitude assumes motorists fit their idealist model, as if one 200-250km charge will last the whole week, and no one needs to carry out several or dozens of weekly business or family/houshold errands.

[kwhelan 241]

18 hours ago, Gabe79 said:

Almost everything you'd want to know from a NZ context is contained here:

https://samholford.github.io/leafguide/

If you have any questions it doesn't address, I can try to address for you, just ask.

that covers leafs in general, I'm meaning more the pitfalls of EVs in general, what is there life expectancy, total cost of ownership, how do you spot a lemon, whats a good buy and what has 12 months left till it dies,at what point will it be worthless, For petrols these things are generally known and assessed

 

[Gabe79 410]

Just now, kwhelan said:

that covers leafs in general, I'm meaning more the pitfalls of EVs in general, what is there life expectancy, total cost of ownership, how do you spot a lemon, whats a good buy and what has 12 months left till it dies,at what point will it be worthless, For petrols these things are generally known and assessed

 

Total cost of ownership tends to be relatively trivial. EVs and hybrids have very few moving parts and near-no wear and tear items.  The Volt, and Prius have some of the lowest cost of ownership in the US. 

Life expectancy, the only real data point we have for this in a longer-term sort of way is the Gen1 Prius (1997-2003). Those batteries started suffering severe degradation after 10 years. The current generation batteries seem to be degrading slower than expected (true for the Leaf, unsure for others, I expect the same as Nissan isn't exactly heavy on battery R&D)  with the Gen 1 Leafs still having near full capacities in many instances 6 years on. The car itself will last just like any other, it's the battery that'll degrade.

No battery for a Leaf has ever died in NZ. If you look in that link I pasted, there is very good work that has been done towards battery diagnostics. It's really as simple as run LeafSpy, look for SOH (State of Health) of the battery,  above 80% and you're doing great. Most places selling EVs will provide this info proactively, or on request, any that don't, just go elsewhere. The reputable ones all do. 

What's a 'good buy' is eye of the beholder, I think. I paid 10k for my Leaf, 2011, 10 bars (out of 12) I know someone who paid $22k for his and he's happy. Knowing what I know now, I think 13-15k is the right price point for a newer model with a 30kw battery. Charging costs even less than we thought it would, so the difference could have gone into a newer car. That said, for our needs, our Leaf is perfect. I have to make an effort to drive the BMW now, it was always intended as a second car, but it sits most of the time.

[aja540i 1906]

A couple of points about EVs,

1) There are NO envirinmentally friendly cars! If your main concern is the environment,  try walking.

2) They don't suit everybody, just like any other car. A leaf is just as useless for a weekend 5 person road trip ski holiday as a nissan Micra, do your home work and buy a car that suits your needs.

3) Just like digital vs film cameras, if /when they become mainstream there will still be people who prefer the older tech for whatever reason and keep an ice car in the garage. I will be one of those people.

4) At the moment if you drive an EV you contribute nothing towards the cost of building / maintaining the roads you use, that will change, its just a matter of time.

[hotwire 352]

^^^^^ All very true Andrew. Off topic to EV's but look what has happened to listening to music - done the full circle back to turntable.

Not all new tech is best... 

[zero 1162]

In the UK petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2040, and in France by 2030. 

I better hurry up and finish my project car or it will be banned a week after its first drive. 

[Michael. 2313]

7 hours ago, zero said:

In the UK petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2040, and in France by 2030. 

I better hurry up and finish my project car or it will be banned a week after its first drive. 

You think Petroleum companies and the car industry would watch that happen?

The world economy would collapse with such illogical bans in place that would put millions of people out of jobs, part stores, mechanic garages, the effects would be endless! 

Statements like this are just sensationalist nonsense anyway, as with most man made global warming propaganda. 

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

19 hours ago, zero said:

In the UK petrol and diesel cars will be banned from 2040, and in France by 2030. 

I better hurry up and finish my project car or it will be banned a week after its first drive. 

That is solely petrol or diesel powered cars- if they are hybrid or whatever they will still be allowed to be sold new after 2040. At this point, anyway...

The really retarded thing about that situation is it was introduced in response to an EU directive to have a cleaner car fleet- after the UK voted for Brexit!

[Blackie 510]

On 10/26/2017 at 4:21 AM, coop said:

Would mainstream media print anything to the contray? Would 'researchers' who are likely in the govt pocket come up with different results that don't tow the official line on climate change? 

It would be more environmentally friendly to run my current 15 year old car for another 5-7 years which returns 8.5l/100km highway than to increase/encourage consumerism and drop $40-50k on an EV for a five year cycle.

 

Just more wealthy, white western liberals telling us what we need to do as a way of virtue signalling to feed their false moral conscience when it comes to enviro/social issues. 

They will happily guilt trip the majority of the population on green issues while they have no dramas shitting into clean drinking water, using excessive amounts of water (three showers/day, two laundry cycles/day, watering their garden on their high six figure - seven figure quarter acre section), daily consumption of meat and dairy (demand for intensive farming), two or more late/new vehicles per household, jet setting on holiday every 6 mth - 1 year etc. 

These clowns are the epitome of hypocrisy and fail to put their money where their mouth is, but expects everyone else to tow their line. 

 

 

 

You forgot fake news, chemtrails and flouride is mind control