In need of expert opinion

[Nzrooney 5]

To cut a long story short, I'm getting rid of my wife's daily so she is going to hold on to my colorado. I'm looking at a decent touring so I still have something practical to cart the kids around. This will be my daily and I'm not to concerned about fuel costs but a bit stuck on whether to go for a bit of fun or the sensible option.   https://www.trademe.co.nz/3405886674 this is possibly the fun daily option or https://www.trademe.co.nz/3371934630 as a sensible option. I know they are completely different wagons but I would love your opinion, the good, the bad, the ugly. These two cars might not be the final choices but you get the idea. Side note, the winner will be staying outside as the 330ci will never be leaving the garage 😁, I appreciate your opinion in advance. 

[Gaz 1058]

The f31 320d is probably the most complete car around. Has enough torque to keep you happy whilst maintaining comfort. Plus the interior is a much nicer place to be over the e91. F31 all day.

[E28E30 335]

Agree @Gaz

[TonyT 48]

Both respond really well to remapping. The low down torque from the diesel is very addictive for sub 100kmh and round town driving. At that mileage both will need some maintenance and would benefit from new shocks at least, so keep some budget in reserve. 

[Nzrooney 5]

Appreciate it. Anything in particular I should be keeping an eye on in regards to either model? I've heard horrible and great things on the 335i but know next to nothing on the 320d. In terms of long term reliability how does the f31 stack up?

[balancerider 752]

320d is a good choice. This one https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/bmw/320d/listing/3381217013 has been in NZ since 10k km and has all round parking sensors / towbar / pan roof. Remap possible but not really necessary, the N47 engine is great around town and F31 definitely rides better than E91 even on optional 19's

There is a reasonable amount of internet publicity on timing chain issues on the prefacelift F31 320d but if oil is changed more regularly than 2 yrs / 32000k stock interval I suspect it's unlikely. Otherwise reliability seems sound, potentially some issues with electronics, I had the LED indicator in my wing mirror die at 2 years old.

Edited December 30, 2021 by balancerider

[NZ BMW 368]

I have the sedan. I worried if the 2L would be enough but find it very versatile. 

FWIW - I get about 15k km out of my condition-based servicing indicator so pretty happy with that. 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

17 hours ago, Gaz said:

The f31 320d is probably the most complete car around. Has enough torque to keep you happy whilst maintaining comfort. Plus the interior is a much nicer place to be over the e91. F31 all day.

^^This. The 320d in standard tune (no need to map it and screw all the emissions kit) has plenty of torque and does the 80-120kph overtakes easily even when we’ll loaded up.
330d / 335d would be nice, but obviously more $$$, but not necessary.

The F31 really is a leap ahead of the E91 in most aspects.

[Nzrooney 5]

Beauty, thanks for the advice. I better get the wife's car all cleaned up for sale. 

[TonyT 48]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:08 AM, Nzrooney said:

Appreciate it. Anything in particular I should be keeping an eye on in regards to either model? I've heard horrible and great things on the 335i but know next to nothing on the 320d. In terms of long term reliability how does the f31 stack up?

They can be prone to a leaky seal at the back of the transmission which requires the transmission to be partially dropped to get to. Mine was fixed under warranty, and I suspect most that were going to have an issue would have had it by now and been fixed, but worth checking the service records for. Everything else should be pretty good, just look for shock wear. I replaced mine at 75km. Oh, and they DO respond really well to a remap - you will release 50-60Nm, improve fuel economy, and most importantly throttle response. 

[NZ BMW 368]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

They can be prone to a leaky seal at the back of the transmission which requires the transmission to be partially dropped to get to. Mine was fixed under warranty, and I suspect most that were going to have an issue would have had it by now and been fixed, but worth checking the service records for. Everything else should be pretty good, just look for shock wear. I replaced mine at 75km. Oh, and they DO respond really well to a remap - you will release 50-60Nm, improve fuel economy, and most importantly throttle response. 

Interested in the comment on shock absorbers - my understanding has always been these are one of the longer-lived items in suspension terms. Are you specifically referring to the touring or is this a general comment? If general, what informs your thinking on this and what did you notice after replacement, did you go OEM or aftermarket? 

[TonyT 48]

It all depends how sharp you want the cars handling to be. Most people put up with shock wear because its gradual and insidious and you just get used to it, day by day. 100,000km shocks will probably still work fine, but they won't work AS fine as a new set. Same is true of front arm bushes. If you just want a car to drive around in then dont bother changing them. If you want a car to enjoy driving then consider renewing shocks and bushes after 75km. You'll probably find aftermarket shocks cheaper and better than BMW branded versions. Bilstein is a good place to start. But if its just going to be used as a shopping trolley then dont bother. 

[Olaf 3309]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:46 PM, Gaz said:

The f31 320d is probably the most complete car around. Has enough torque to keep you happy whilst maintaining comfort. Plus the interior is a much nicer place to be over the e91. F31 all day.

^^ This!

Also agree with @E30 325i Rag-Top's point about not bothering with the remap.  You can extract more HP, more Torque, better economy... but something's got to give.  How's the emissions or long-term reliability after the remap?  

Shocks?  Yep, 100-125k kms and they're best replaced along with all the bushes, spring seats etc.  OE Sachs are great value, and where the genuine item is alloy bodied, the Sachs are too; Bilstein Touring usually close to price yet steel bodied.  Sorting the suspension provides long term enjoyment, better braking and steering, increased tyre life, increased safety - especially for the shopping trolley.

[TonyT 48]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

How's the emissions or long-term reliability after the remap?  

75,000km after remapping mine and nothing's broken, everything's in good shape! As for emissions, thats what the DPF is for.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

75,000km after remapping mine and nothing's broken, everything's in good shape! 

Really? How would you know? Have you pulled the engine / gearbox / diff apart and measured the wear? Or are you just going on the “nothings gone bang so it must be all good approach”? In all honesty the level of gain you have got from your map wouldn’t really put the drivetrain outside its comfort zone so there is unlikely to be too much difference. If you’ve been making the most of the extra oomph it’s more likely to be suspension and brakes that have had more of a working out.

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

As for emissions, thats what the DPF is for.

It’s there to try to manage one part of the vast array of emissions, not all of them. And it’s most likely that your map has increased the particulate emission dramatically so your DPF will be working much harder, and will not be managing to keep the particulate levels down where they should be. 

Let alone the CO2, NOx, HC, etc that will be off the chart. But hey, at least you get to rest your leg as you’ve got a better throttle response.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

On 1/1/2022 at 9:00 AM, TonyT said:

They can be prone to a leaky seal at the back of the transmission which requires the transmission to be partially dropped to get to. Mine was fixed under warranty, and I suspect most that were going to have an issue would have had it by now and been fixed, but worth checking the service records for. Everything else should be pretty good, just look for shock wear. I replaced mine at 75km. Oh, and they DO respond really well to a remap - you will release 50-60Nm, improve fuel economy, and most importantly throttle response. 

i worked for an authorised ZF repairer for 2 years and not once did we have that issue, and thats across dozens of makes and models that use the same trans. prone is a red herring here. 

forums eh.

[NZ BMW 368]

16 hours ago, Olaf said:

^^ This!

Also agree with @E30 325i Rag-Top's point about not bothering with the remap.  You can extract more HP, more Torque, better economy... but something's got to give.  How's the emissions or long-term reliability after the remap?  

Shocks?  Yep, 100-125k kms and they're best replaced along with all the bushes, spring seats etc.  OE Sachs are great value, and where the genuine item is alloy bodied, the Sachs are too; Bilstein Touring usually close to price yet steel bodied.  Sorting the suspension provides long term enjoyment, better braking and steering, increased tyre life, increased safety - especially for the shopping trolley.

I am surprised at that - my car has most of the front-end bushings done under warranty, I noticed very little difference. I doubt the shocks will get done unless I keep the car really long term, will have to see. 

[Olaf 3309]

Having done shocks on eight of my own cars since 1994 (in one case two sets in 2.5 years), you'd have to be flat-lining not to recognise the improvement over worn out/ailing/or just old shocks.  I've driven many, many cars in the mean time with shocks that are buggered or just plain beyond their useful life, and wonder why the owners haven't woken up and replaced them.

53 minutes ago, NZ BMW said:

 I doubt the shocks will get done unless I keep the car really long term, will have to see. 

And therein lies the root of the issue:  deferred maintenance passed on to the next poor sap. 

[TonyT 48]

12 hours ago, _ethrty-Andy_ said:

i worked for an authorised ZF repairer for 2 years and not once did we have that issue, and thats across dozens of makes and models that use the same trans. prone is a red herring here. 

forums eh.

Perhaps if you worked at a BMW dealership which fixes these cars under warranty you would have seen this issue? I believe its the seal between the ZF box and the xDrive, so unlikely to be something a ZF repairer would see.  There is a BMW service bulletin out to cover this specific issue so I guess they see it as something that happens more than once in a blue moon. The dealership told me that they had seen and fixed the issue on a number of other F3x with the ZF 8 speed box, also under warranty. I suspect the seal either goes in the first 5 years or not at all. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by TonyT

[TonyT 48]

14 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Let alone the CO2, NOx, HC, etc that will be off the chart. But hey, at least you get to rest your leg as you’ve got a better throttle response.

Off the chart? Hilarious. My neighbour has a 1990s Prado which belches black smoke every time he starts it up. You run a race car. A small increase in emissions from my remapped 2l diesel are not worth your concern, just let people get on an enjoy their cars. For me, the remapping has been a thoroughly positive and enjoyable experience, and I would do it again in a heart beat. 

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

Perhaps if you worked at a BMW dealership which fixes these cars under warranty you would have seen this issue? I believe its the seal between the ZF box and the xDrive, so unlikely to be something a ZF repairer would see.  There is a BMW service bulletin out to cover this specific issue so I guess they see it as something that happens more than once in a blue moon. The dealership told me that they had seen and fixed the issue on a number of other F3x with the ZF 8 speed box, also under warranty. I suspect the seal either goes in the first 5 years or not at all. 

i doubt NZ is any different the BMW Canada. if a gearbox had issues, BMWs only solution is to replace the whole transmission. The dealers would often refer thier customers to us.

edit: in some cases we would even bill straight to the dealer. I know the BMW dealer ships here in NZ outsource some thier Getrag manual work

[NZ BMW 368]

2 hours ago, Olaf said:

Having done shocks on eight of my own cars since 1994 (in one case two sets in 2.5 years), you'd have to be flat-lining not to recognise the improvement over worn out/ailing/or just old shocks.  I've driven many, many cars in the mean time with shocks that are buggered or just plain beyond their useful life, and wonder why the owners haven't woken up and replaced them.

And therein lies the root of the issue:  deferred maintenance passed on to the next poor sap. 

I think at a hair over 110km the implication that I’m somehow passing the can is questionable. If you like putting money into depreciating cars as a labour of love because you are keeping them long term, that’s a choice you can make. To spend thousands on a car that you’re not going to see the money back out of or be noticed by the new owner, I can’t come up with a good reason why someone would do that. 

The way I look at it is this: I’ve picked this car up at 3-years or there abouts, it’s now 6ish years. It’ll be about 8 by the time I move it on. You really think the 3rd owner is likely to maintain it that well, an 8yo 3 Series which will have about 140km on the clock? They’ll probably struggle to get it serviced or put good tyres on it - I’ll see if BMW recommend I change anything - given all the work done on the front end I’m sure they would have said something by now if they were concerned. 

[NZ BMW 368]

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

Off the chart? Hilarious. My neighbour has a 1990s Prado which belches black smoke every time he starts it up. You run a race car. A small increase in emissions from my remapped 2l diesel are not worth your concern, just let people get on an enjoy their cars. For me, the remapping has been a thoroughly positive and enjoyable experience, and I would do it again in a heart beat. 

I always worry that at some point there will be a “smog test” as part of a WOF and you’ll get picked up for that - I guess you could always remap it to stock. I also feel that the logic is like saying if others dump a trailer of rubbish on the side of the road, I can throw a hamburger wrapper out there - I guess it’s how you feel about it. 

Really though, if you want a fast diesel I would just go for the 330D, that thing is a great driver's car. 

[coop 261]

10 minutes ago, NZ BMW said:

I always worry that at some point there will be a “smog test” as part of a WOF and you’ll get picked up for that - I guess you could always remap it to stock. I also feel that the logic is like saying if others dump a trailer of rubbish on the side of the road, I can throw a hamburger wrapper out there - I guess it’s how you feel about it. 

Really though, if you want a fast diesel I would just go for the 330D, that thing is a great driver's car. 

Taking a moral high ground on someone who deletes their car of adblue or DPF or remaps for performance is champagne socialist levels of hypocrisy especially if one owns multiple vehicles, old car pre emissions vehicles, (or a race car lmao), uses their car for anything more than essential travel, travels by plane for leisure etc. 

Besides, who ever complains about DPF removal is oblivious to what happens when they re gen. All that matter trapped is burnt out of the exhaust. 

[qube 3570]

Getting pretty off topic into the realms of personal opinions on a controversial matter. 
 

back to the OP,

huge diff between an e91 and f31 but you obviously pay the price difference up front. In the long run the f31 might end up being the better and cheaper car. It would be my pick any day.

if you have the money for a f chassis wagon definitely go for that. If you want a lower buying price then an e91 is still a great car/bmw and just get things fixed as you go.