HELP! Needing Advice on Private Sale Duties

[Kees 594]

So I just got the call I didn't want. 

About a month ago I sold my NZ New 2006 Audi S8 with 119,000km. I think I was as transparent as possible with the car. It came with a clear file filled with all the work that was done to the car and why the work was done. 

The day before money was transferred and the buyer took the car, I had the car serviced at Continental Audi so that it would be fresh and ready to go for the new owner.  

Continental Audi also did their typical dealer inspection.

They noted: 

- Split CV boot 

- Minor oil leak near alternator

- Abnormal sound when opening the sunroof (just needed some lubrication)

- Some damage to the engine under-tray cover (as expected with a car of this age)

 

I was actually pretty impressed with the car as I thought that if the dealer was OCD enough to note the sunroof squeak, surely the car must be in decent order.  The buyer agreed and bought the car. 

I felt good about the deal because I genuinely thought the car was a great car (which I still think), and I had been extremely transparent with the whole thing. 

Fast forward about a month and a half to today, the buyer rings me saying over the weekend he was driving the car and the under-tray blew out on the motorway. He pulled over to put it in the boot and found it had oil on it. 

 

He took the car to Hamilton Audi who have diagnosed the rear crank seals are leaking oil onto the exhaust manifold and eventually down to the under-tray. This is an engine and gearbox out to fix. Apparently there's a decent amount of dried oil on the under-tray and it drips onto the exhaust manifold. 

However, this was never picked up on when it was serviced, it obviously never dropped a drip of oil when I owned the car, but most importantly; the car never smelt of burnt oil after driving it (which it would if its dripping heaps of oil on the exhaust manifold). If it is leaking badly onto the exhaust manifold he would have smelt it on the test drive, let alone the 1.5 months he's had the car. 

My guess is its actually not too bad and theres just some built up grudge on the engine cover. 

So what do you guys think I should do? I know that as a private seller I have no obligation to do anything but I do feel bad he is not happy with the car. 

But on the same vein, I literally had the car serviced and inspected the day before collection, and it came with a clear file of literally every single thing I had done to the car and the reason for it. The car was also NZ New with a full Audi service history, with the lowest ks of any PFL D3 S8 on the market at the time, and I sold it for under $20K which I think was pretty fair. It also had near new dealer fitted Pirelli Pzeros, the front pads and rotors were like 2000km old, like everything was done.  

Like at the end of the day its a 16 year old ultra-high spec European Limousine, I don't think its unreasonable it might have an oil leak. I'm sure most of us wouldn't be too unhappy that an old European car has an oil leak so long as its not pissing out oil, but the guy was really pissed off. 

And for under $20K, I think its unreasonable to be furious at a 16 year old car leaking some oil. 

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Kees

[M3AN 4016]

Not an ideal situation but unless you're prepared to throw money at something you don't own, what are your options?

Buying anything used comes with a degree of risk the buyer accepts, had the car blown up the day after you sold it it might be a different story (and you'd probably be having a chat to Continental Audi).

I think you did everything you could before the sale, you have no obligation after the sale as long as you've been honest and it seems you have. Continental Audi effectively gave it a clean bill of health except for some minor items which a) you disclosed, b) the buyer accepted, and c) are reasonable for the age of the vehicle.

As tough as it might seem this is a matter of caveat emptor, and in the ~45 days of ownership the buyer had ample opportunity to get a mechanical warranty and apparently chose not to.

[E28E30 335]

I agree.  Having been on the end of some far less scrupulous secondhand car deals with buried issues and felt let down by humanity, in contrast you’ve behaved as well as anyone could be expected to.   Your conscience should be clear; but acknowledge that it feels “off” to be in your situation.

And as you say, 16 year old high performance, complex European car.  It has a leak, admittedly an annoyingly expensive one to address, but that’s the nature of the beast.   

Edited April 4, 2022 by E28E30

[Kees 594]

10 minutes ago, M3AN said:

Not an ideal situation but unless you're prepared to throw money at something you don't own, what are your options?

Buying anything used comes with a degree of risk the buyer accepts, had the car blown up the day after you sold it it might be a different story (and you'd probably be having a chat to Continental Audi).

I think you did everything you could before the sale, you have no obligation after the sale as long as you've been honest and it seems you have. Continental Audi effectively gave it a clean bill of health except for some minor items which a) you disclosed, b) the buyer accepted, and c) are reasonable for the age of the vehicle.

As tough as it might seem this is a matter of caveat emptor, and in the ~45 days of ownership the buyer had ample opportunity to get a mechanical warranty and apparently chose not to.

Yeah I think you summarised it perfectly. I genuinely feel I was very transparent with the car. The clear file I gave him was over 30 pages of information, receipts, etc on the car, including the receipt and report from Audi themselves, it was literally everything related to that car. And the thing is he knows I was very transparent with the car, because on the phone he was getting quite frustrated with me but when I reminded him that the car was inspected by Audi in the service the day before we did the deal he seemed to calm down. 

He also mentioned the first place he took the car (I'm guessing yesterday) diagnosed the leak as somewhere else so in itself its not confidence inspiring that Audi have now diagnosed the crankshaft seals and probably given him a sizeable quote to rectify it. 

 

How do you think I should progress, as he wants to hear back from me soon? I was thinking I should suggest to him getting the under-tray back on the car nice and clean, and then monitoring how much oil leaks onto it to gauge the severity of the leak. I'm hoping the leak is not very severe (which I'm guessing it isn't as you would smell burnt oil if its constantly dripping on the exhaust manifold), so that it shows him its not worth dropping the engine and gearbox for an oil leak like that. It may just be that the under-tray had 20,000+ km of oil leaking on it. 

Like I feel bad he is unhappy but I was not hiding the oil leak from him as I didn't even know about it! And as you said, it's not my car anymore so it's not really fair I contribute to fix something like that.  

[Kees 594]

12 minutes ago, E28E30 said:

that it feels “off” to be in your situation.

Good point! Not really fair and does seem off to ring me demanding money for something I had no knowledge of existing. I'll try get him to understand my perspective:

I had no knowledge of the leak. The car was serviced and inspected the day before sale and collection. The service information is in the 30 pages of info in the clear file. I told you about what was noted on Audi's inspection report. I got the car a WOF and a year rego as you requested prior to sale and it was inspected by Audi. I did everything you asked and was transparent through the whole process.  

[freaknout 47]

Unfortunately this gent is taking out his bad luck out on you. Politely decline his invitation to contribute.

[qube 3570]

All the stuff you wrote above regarding transparency, clear file worth of receipts, dealer fitted tyres, the price, the age, the price/value is basically irrelevant.

You definitely went above and beyond a typical seller, presented the car accurately as possible and got it serviced (at your cost I assume).

It is always buyers responsibility to do his own checks and not take your word or the audi's service report as the final word. If he decided to base his decision to buy on the information you provided him, that is his choice and also his consequence to face any potential issues down the line (1.5 months down the line).

 

[Braydon 40]

Agree with everyone here, you've already gone above and beyond what most sellers would do. 
You're not a dealership that is required to help here, you're average joe, and they purchased the car as-is where-is. 

I sold my WRX last week, gave him all receipts/invoices etc. The next day he called about a knocking noise under the car. 
He brought it around, I found the gearbox mount had broken, organised another and replaced it all within an hour. I feel I've done more than necessary there, and I can't say I'd be willing to do any more in the future if there were any other issues. 

When you buy a used car from a civilian and not a business, you take the risk of no warranty, and risk finding issues the moment you drive away. It's unreasonable, especially in your situation, to expect a refund for repairs etc.

In my opinion.

[Kees 594]

9 minutes ago, qube said:

and got it serviced (at your cost I assume).

Yup, that was over $930 alone! 

13 minutes ago, qube said:

It is always buyers responsibility to do his own checks and not take your word or the audi's service report as the final word. If he decided to base his decision to buy on the information you provided him, that is his choice and also his consequence to face any potential issues down the line (1.5 months down the line).

Yeah very true, I guess there's always risk when buying a used car, especially an older high spec European one, so the buyer has to mitigate their own risk how they see fit. 

Any ideas on how I handle things when I speak to him next?

Do I just explain it doesn't really seem fair for me considering I did everything he asked, and was transparent about the car so I shouldn't be held responsible for how the car is now. 

[qube 3570]

5 minutes ago, Kees said:

Any ideas on how I handle things when I speak to him next?

Do I just explain it doesn't really seem fair for me considering I did everything he asked, and was transparent about the car so I shouldn't be held responsible for how the car is now. 

I think you should keep it very simple. No real need or reason to give advice on how to remedy the issue. 

Just say what you already told us above - you disclosed all the information you had about the vehicle, had it serviced and wof'd, and it was sold in good faith.

It has now been a month and a half and any issues he currently has is his own responsibility. You can say that are happy to give free verbal advice or recommendations on where to go for servicing/repairs since you are an enthusiast or knowledgeable about these cars but ultimately any cost of repairs is not your responsibility. 

No point trying to sugar coat it. Better to be clear and upfront but still be kind. (thank aunty Cindy for teaching me that)

[Kees 594]

2 minutes ago, qube said:

No point trying to sugar coat it

Good point, might as well try rip the band aid off as he's not going to be happy sugar coated or not so would be best to be straight to the point and very clear. 

Really appreciate the advice!! 

[qube 3570]

Side note, a while ago I bought a car sight unseen and transported to me. There were heaps of things I wasnt happy about that was not disclosed. Obvious things that I would have liked to know in advance. Things that I would have pointed out if I inspected and picked up the vehicle myself. Probably I would have tried to get the price down to compensate. Nevertheless I was still okay with it given the price and overall "deal" of the purchase. 

Anyway, I emailed the seller after I received the car about these issues and he just didnt reply, even though prior to completing the sale, every txt, email and call was responded to instantly.

Ultimately, it was my own decision to buy the car in this manner so it is my own fault (read: responsibility).

 

[aja540i 1906]

Did you provide the purchaser with a written guarantee when you sold him the car? If you did then honor the terms of the guarantee. If you didn't then he has no right to come to you asking for money for repairs, UNLESS YOU DELIBERATELY MISLED HIM about the state of the vehicle, and I don't  believe you did!

Feel free to suggest he researches his rights under the consumer guarantees act.

[Kees 594]

14 minutes ago, aja540i said:

Did you provide the purchaser with a written guarantee when you sold him the car?

Nope, I don't think I would ever personally guarantee a vehicle I'm selling. 

17 minutes ago, aja540i said:

suggest he researches his rights under the consumer guarantees act

Have written him an email explaining I claim no responsibility for repairing the oil leak, if he comes back aggressively, I might send him the relevant provisions of the CGA. 

[TonyT 48]

Sounds as if you would be comfortable defending your position at a disputes tribunal hearing, so maybe put the acid back on the buyer by suggesting he start that process?

 

[Navin 180]

5 hours ago, freaknout said:

Unfortunately this gent is taking out his bad luck out on you. Politely decline his invitation to contribute.

100% this. Completely unreasonable for him to even expect anything considering all the steps you took to ensure full transparency when handing the car over. I've sold many cars over the years and yeah sure some have had issues post sale and the buyers got in touch but it was always just get advice since I knew the car best

[M3AN 4016]

2 hours ago, Kees said:

... if he comes back aggressively, I might send him the relevant provisions of the CGA. 

I'd recommend against that unless you're a solicitor. As Kyu suggested above, say the minimum you can whilst remaining polite, any extra commentary just provides another vector for discussion or dispute that can obfuscate the fact that you are not responsible.

The absolute most I would offer is to waive your right to privacy with respect to the most recent inspection by Continental Audi (that you paid for). This would allow the new owner to discuss that service directly with them and dispute the quality of their work if he wanted to dig in. But that has nothing to do with you, you just need to get out of the way.

Hopefully the buyer sees reason though and accepts the reality of the situation he's in, tough as that might be.

Edited April 5, 2022 by M3AN

[jon dee 500]

Yesterday
All my troubles seemed so far away
Now it looks as though they’re here to stay
Oh, I believe in yesterday

Suddenly
I’m not half the man I used to be
There’s a shadow hanging over me
Oh, yesterday came suddenly

 

Don't worry son... Honest John's Car Sales use and recommended this product...

Cheers...

[Kees 594]

3 hours ago, M3AN said:

I'd recommend against that unless you're a solicitor. As Kyu suggested above, say the minimum you can whilst remaining polite, any extra commentary just provides another vector for discussion or dispute that can obfuscate the fact that you are not responsible.

The absolute most I would offer is to waive your right to privacy with respect to the most recent inspection by Continental Audi (that you paid for). This would allow the new owner to discuss that service directly with them and dispute the quality of their work if he wanted to dig in. But that has nothing to do with you, you just need to get out of the way.

Hopefully the buyer sees reason though and accepts the reality of the situation he's in, tough as that might be.

I tried to write a polite response which I emailed to him. It consisted of two sections as I'm hoping it can act as a way to conclude contact.

I first gave some advice on what I would do in regards to diagnosing the severity of the leak. I made sure to explicitly state it was my personal opinion and I am not a mechanic, and to seek proper advice and opinion from Audi. 

I then reminded him of the service and inspection done the day before the deal was finalised. I stated I had no knowledge of the leak which is a fact he knows, I pointed to the fact Audi had inspected the car with no such leak noted, and concluded I do not accept responsibility for fixing the leak. 

I tried to phrase things as professionally as possible. I'm currently a third year law student so I tried to be as careful as possible in how I explained everything. 

Hoping the email I sent him can conclude contact, or at least allow for me to conclude it myself. I provided advice as to what he could hypothetically do in terms of sorting the car to a standard he is happy with, and confirmed where I feel my position stands on the matter. 

Have not had a reply yet. 

[Olaf 3317]

10 hours ago, TonyT said:

Sounds as if you would be comfortable defending your position at a disputes tribunal hearing, so maybe put the acid back on the buyer by suggesting he start that process?

 

You have time to waste?  Why invite someone to waste your time.

[Olaf 3317]

Buyers Remorse can take many forms.  This buyer should have bought a car they could afford to run, from a dealer, with a warranty.  They're attempting to transfer their responsibility for a risky purchase decision to you, as the vendor.  

We're all here with a gambling addiction, running old BMWs, trying to improve our odds.  Whether it's the Blackjack or Roulette table, occasionally a new player joins the game, tries their luck.  They respond according to their risk appetite. 

Buying any 16 (or even 3-5) year old Euro is risky.  We do our best to manage that risk down by getting expert inspections done by a specialist, buying a car that's clearly been well looked after.  

Be clear and concise.  One discussion is all it should take.  The more you talk with this person, the more you fuel their hopes that you will meet whatever irrational expectation they have of you.  You met your obligations, misrepresented nothing, had the car serviced and provided reports and evidence or thorough maintenance.  You're not a car expert.  The buyer had ample opportunity to gain their own inspection.  You have no control over use of the vehicle following the sale, and your obligation ceased at title transfer.  Sorry to hear it hasn't met your expectations [insert appropriate pronoun] Purchaser, I enjoyed the car.  Goodbye.  

 

[TonyT 48]

5 hours ago, Olaf said:

You have time to waste?  Why invite someone to waste your time.

Because often the invitation can be the kick up the backside needed to inject some reality into the conversation and make the aggressor realise you are not going to be a pushover. 

[Olaf 3317]

5 minutes ago, TonyT said:

Because often the invitation can be the kick up the backside needed to inject some reality into the conversation and make the aggressor realise you are not going to be a pushover. 

then they take your advice seriously and get you into a hearing that you're then essentially obliged to attend, as no-shows don't fare well.  I prefer the Keep It Simple, Stupid approach, and don't rely on not having your bluff called.  Your mileage may vary, you may have a higher threshold for stupid.  Me, I learned you can't argue with stupid, so why bother.

[jon dee 500]

5 hours ago, Olaf said:

We're all here with a gambling addiction, running old BMWs, trying to improve our odds.  Whether it's the Blackjack or Roulette table, occasionally a new player joins the game, tries their luck.  They respond according to their risk appetite. 

Buying any 16 (or even 3-5) year old Euro is risky.    

Is this not the reason why old Euros sell for 10cents on the dollar ? For the unwary, the price of learning that lesson can be high !!! 

Cheers...

[Olaf 3317]

FOMO, perhaps?  😁  Missing out on the lifestyle, the driving experience, instead living with the humdrum experience of operating an appliance?