BMW M approved Castrol Edge tws 10w 60 vs ...

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

BMW M approved Castrol Edge tws 10w 60 vs Castrol Edge Titanium 10w 60.

Both made by castrol. Both the same weight. One is not approved by BMW M.

There is A LOT of discussion on the net about why the BMW M approved tws is so good, but does any one know any more about the Edge titanium version? It seems to be an Australasian variant of the Edge product, the 10w 60 grade is not approved by BMW M, but the 5w-30 grade is. I'm thinking a road car that doesn't get much high rpm use wouldn't really warrant the use of a racing oil like tws 10w60, besides I am changing the oil out every 5 - 8000 kms with 2 - 3 litres of topping up in between changes. Thoughts?

[FIAT 131R 223]

Like everything with BMW the reason is dollars. They control the prices. I believe Toyota also use it for oil changes but don't retail it. Try and buy TWS from anywhere and you will be bowled over by the price and how hard it is to buy. I use Penzzoil 10W/60 in my S54 M3 powered race car and change it after every third meeting. I believe it's the same oil different name and packaging. Seems to be fine. I buy 40 litres at a time to get bulk buying prices..

[FIAT 131R 223]

BTW where are those 2 to 3 litres between oil changes going. That would scare the crap out of me if it was my car.

[M3_Power 636]

I believe the two are basically the same product actually.

Here's some specs:

TWS (for M) : Now known as TWS Edge Professional

Relative density @ 20.0 deg C = 0.865
Viscosity at 40 deg C = 163.1
Viscosity at 100 deg C = 24.3
Viscosity Index = 181
Flash Point (closed) deg C = 198
Pour point deg C = -42
TBN = 8.1

http://www.tds.castrol.co.nz/pdf/10709_Edge%20Professional%20TWS%2010W-60.pdf

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/6FDB8BF64A70767380257B520054A718/$File/BPXE-96ZTLQ.pdf

Compare that to the Titanium:

http://www.tds.castrol.co.nz/pdf/10806_EDGE%2010W-60%20SN.pdf

Almost exactly the same specification.

Now if you really want to get to the bottom of it all, why don't you PM the guy (Doug Hillary is his name) that developed it for Castrol himself directly on this forum below LOL (seems from what he says, it was developed and then branded separately, one for BMW and one for Castrol itself):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988455

Edited February 4, 2014 by M3_Power

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

BTW where are those 2 to 3 litres between oil changes going. That would scare the crap out of me if it was my car.

Its going in to the air you and I breathe. Common for the e39 m5 to drink a litre of oil between 1000-1500kms.

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

I believe the two are basically the same product actually.

Here's some specs:

TWS (for M) : Now known as TWS Edge Professional

Relative density @ 20.0 deg C = 0.865

Viscosity at 40 deg C = 163.1

Viscosity at 100 deg C = 24.3

Viscosity Index = 181

Flash Point (closed) deg C = 198

Pour point deg C = -42

TBN = 8.1

http://www.tds.castrol.co.nz/pdf/10709_Edge%20Professional%20TWS%2010W-60.pdf

http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/6FDB8BF64A70767380257B520054A718/$File/BPXE-96ZTLQ.pdf

Compare that to the Titanium:

http://www.tds.castrol.co.nz/pdf/10806_EDGE%2010W-60%20SN.pdf

Almost exactly the same specification.

Now if you really want to get to the bottom of it all, why don't you PM the guy (Doug Hillary is his name) that developed it for Castrol himself directly on this forum below LOL (seems from what he says, it was developed and then branded separately, one for BMW and one for Castrol itself):

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2988455

Yeah I read some posts by old mr Doug tws Hill. Im not tracking my car so I think using a racing oil, which the original ester based tws blend is, is ott for a dd m car.

[euroriffic 607]

I use the 10w60 edge in my M and seems fine...

[Kodachrome 150]

The Mobil 1 Motorsport 10w60 is a better oil in the same metrics than the Castrol 10w60 TWS (data available online, its about high temp shear resistance). Also the Castrol 10w60 Edge (not Edge Sport) is the same oil BMW sell as the M oil.

[hybrid 1043]

SN = Ripco / Supersheap

TWS = Dealers

[hybrid 1043]

Castrol Edge Sport 10w60sn

[Tristan 338]

SN?

And I was wondering about the Non-BMW Castrol - I didn't see that at SuperCheap or Repco, do I need to look harder?

I bought mine at a Repco

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

SN?

And I was wondering about the Non-BMW Castrol - I didn't see that at SuperCheap or Repco, do I need to look harder?

http://www.supercheapauto.co.nz/online-store/products/Castrol-Edge-Engine-Oil-10W-60-5-Litre.aspx?pid=299204#Cross

[FIAT 131R 223]

I wouldn't use Mobil 1 in my old lawn mower. A few years back we put Mobil 1 in a race motorbike with brand new cams. Within 20 laps the cams looked like someone had been hitting them on an anvil with a sledge hammer.

[M3_Power 636]

Just going to bring this back up from the dead as apparently oil talk is all the rage at the moment in the States ....

News is BMW is dropping Castrol .... and replacing the whole product line with Shell.

So if you are anal and only ever want to run Castrol TWS ... I guess ... go stock up now??

[Neal 540]

Not to mention shells exit from the NZ market

It's the recommended oil for Ducati as well but you can't get the good stuff here.

Will be interesting to see what BMW NZ will do.

[yng_750 247]

Shell have dropped out on nz and aussie with good stuff. Their top rated oils are getting hard to source.

Same goes for mobil

[M3_Power 636]

Sorry for bumping this as it seems like a good time to do so as the Castrol stuff officially ran out from the dealerships a few months back and there’s now only the Shell/BMW stuff left.

I have had some first hand experience now with this new dealership 10W-60 and I am at two minds about it as it seems to act slightly differently depending on if your motor has high km or low km.

On the high km s54 it seems to be the same engine temperature wise, no discernable difference except for a slightly raised temperature under hard driving.

On the low km s54 it was immediately clear that the engine ran much hotter even in normal conditions but about the same under hard driving although the temp rose a lot quicker than before.

I have been doing a bit more research and  I originally thought that the latest Castrol Edge 10W-60 sn with Titanium FST sold locally in NZ (in repco ect) might be the same product sold in the UK approved for BMW M motors - which is named Castrol Edge 10W-60 Supercar with Titanium FST there.

In the UK Castrol Edge with titanium FST isn’t sold in 10W-60 weight, only in the “supercar” range which is also a Castrol Edge product with Titanium FST. Looking at the specs between the NZ product and the UK supercar product they do appear similar. 

Deciding to find out once and for all I decided to email Castrol NZ to find out.

It appears the current NZ product isn’t the same as the UK supercar product sold there approved for the M motors. But it seems this approved product may yet come into NZ. Reply from Castrol NZ below:

Hi Tom,

The NZ Castrol EDGE 10W-60 SN product is different to the EDGE Super Car  10W-60 product in the UK.

If are referring to a product for M series BMW EDGE 10W-60 SN is not the correct oil for these vehicles. We are currently waiting on supply for M series oil in the retail market but do not have a date as yet.

[M3_Power 636]

It’s not a standards or classification difference talking to the technical guy at Castrol. He said flat out the SN local product isn’t approved for BMW M engines.

He says the formulation is completely different.

There is reprive as I say as he says a M approved product maybe released to local retail market soon.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by M3_Power

[M3_Power 636]

7 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Agree - as per : The oils will be different because they are for different markets / climatic / operating conditions -- The key bit here is operating conditions - The  oils will be different for "M" cars because they place different operating conditions on the oil. 

Are you saying they are different “ONLY BECAUSE” the products are for 

- different markets/climatic/operating conditions

or are you saying the formulation is substantively different because it’s for a completely different engine requirement application?

It seems to me you are saying 10W-60 from the Castrol edge titanium range (“insert sub range here”) are all roughly the same with the differentiating factor being marketing and usage in different countries with slight variations in the formulation for market climate and operating conditions?

Because from what I have been told by Castrol the formulation is completely different from the perspective that it is for a different engine requirement and not a marketing, climatic or operating condition variation that you are alluding to.

 

Anyways, some updates. It seems Castrol NZ still have loads of the correct product for M engines (ie the original Castrol TWS aka Castrol Edge Professional (subsequent branding change)) but they weren’t sure if they could sell this to retail customers yet and have now been told that BMW no longer hold a contract over this product. To be continued ....

Edited February 16, 2018 by M3_Power

[M3AN 4016]

16 hours ago, 3pedals said:

SN is just a generic metric  for medium performance turbo'd engines and other Edge range products are also targeted at specific operating conditions like the one I use in my X5 diesel. 

 

Not quite, from the source themselves:

Quote

Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/apiserviceclass.htm

SN is just the "latest" standard, it's not targeted at a specific type of vehicle. You could use it just fine in your non-turbo Ferrari all other things being equal.

The other thing that strikes me about this thread is that OEM certification will only be for the current range of vehicles. An "M" approved oil produced today won't necessarily be "M" approved for vehicles a decade or more older... so that certification is practically useless, perhaps even misleading, for older vehicles.

If the original recommended oil for a vehicle isn't available I think valid questions of an oil manufacturer are; what's the replacement product? are there any additives or characteristics of the replacement product that will be worse for my engine than the original?

The problem is I doubt we'd ever get a straight or reliable answer to those questions - manufacturers deliberately obfuscate oil product details.

It's a less painful process if we can assume every product evolution is better than the last iteration but I'm not sure we can.

 

[M3_Power 636]

And fairly sure this was already discussed back in 2014 

Edited February 20, 2018 by E30 325i Rag-Top

[M3AN 4016]

9 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

Good ol Dave, leave him a hair and he will split it .

No, I wasn't making a small or insignificant distinction, I was calling you out for making a verifiably incorrect claim. You were wrong, period. No hair to split there.

 

[zero 1162]

4 hours ago, 3pedals said:

I sense another pointless circular argument developing

Oh, the irony.

[GorGasm 563]

Penrite 10w60.  Go.

[m325i 709]

@M3_Power what oil are you using? Are you comfortable using the Twin Power?