The end of entry level RWD BMW's?

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2958]

5 hours ago, BlackrazorNZ said:

I think that what they are lamenting is that BMW is giving up its uniqueness in an effort to appeal to the homogenous mass-market which is already exceedingly well served.

Anybody that thinks BMW has chosen to go down this path is missing the realities of the current (and future) car market.

The fact the BMW products have stayed in this layout for longer than most is a tribute to efforts of the engineers to get every last little bit from every other part of the design.

Being in an open, and largely unregulated,  market here in NZ many consumers are blissfully unaware of the factors that are really steering development of motor vehicles.

[M3AN 4016]

I would hazard a guess that an enormous percentage of customers (BMW or otherwise) wouldn't even know, let alone care what wheels were driven. That's gotta factor into the equation too.

I consider this lamentable because I'm in the other, tiny slice of the population. ?

I see the next M3 is apparently 2+2 (~500hp). I don't know how far down you'll be able to dial the front split but possibly not 0%.

So, soon it may be the end of RWD BMW's period. Entry level or not. Whatever the reasons, this makes me sad. ?

[BlackrazorNZ 83]

I guess on the plus side, give it 5-10 years and the internal combustion engine itself will have gone the way of the dodo, so we can all look forward to separate 'engines' on each wheel, all controlled by a central computer.

... in the driverless cars.

... that we all share instead of own.

Edited May 7, 2019 by BlackrazorNZ

[Driftit 2078]

It's when BMW shifts it's focus from prestige and sports cars/suvs to econo-boxes to chase the $$$ that I think will hurt it's image.  It could slip into the VW category where they just make a ton of average vehicles for joe blogs.

There should be two groups.  BMW for Joe Blogs.  M Division for the enthusiast.  Oh wait haha.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Driftit

[Olaf 3318]

5 hours ago, Driftit said:

It's when BMW shifts it's focus from prestige and sports cars/suvs to econo-boxes to chase the $$$ that I think will hurt it's image.  It could slip into the VW category where they just make a ton of average vehicles for joe blogs.

There should be two groups.  BMW for Joe Blogs.  M Division for the enthusiast.  Oh wait haha.

Yeah I think that’s extrapolating it a bit far.  I’m certain BMW are not seeking to compromise on the quality of driving or ownership experience of their brand by building econoboxes.  Building FWD cars does not by definition place them in econobox territory, or have I misinterpreted your post?

They will certainly build cars for the market they expect to buy them.  The X2, and the 2 series ‘Active Touring’ are good examples of this.  Are they econoboxes?

Avert your eyes if you must; (it’s true, I can barely look at them for their ugliness), Mercedes is making a good show of it with their strange hatchbacky A-wotsit these days, without compromising their brand.  Hey, they’re even picking up Subaru fanbois as they climb into grown-up-hood! ?

The company will always change to survive; sometimes the change causes consternation with the brand loyalists.  You should read Naim Audio loyalists sweating the small stuff over the company’s evolution to remain relevant, successful, and growing.  Sadly many of us (Naimees, I’m one) miss that we’re a very small niche group amongst a large market, as Dave rightly points out above.

[Driftit 2078]

1 hour ago, Olaf said:

Yeah I think that’s extrapolating it a bit far.  I’m certain BMW are not seeking to compromise on the quality of driving or ownership experience of their brand by building econoboxes.  Building FWD cars does not by definition place them in econobox territory, or have I misinterpreted your post?

They will certainly build cars for the market they expect to buy them.  The X2, and the 2 series ‘Active Touring’ are good examples of this.  Are they econoboxes?

Avert your eyes if you must; (it’s true, I can barely look at them for their ugliness), Mercedes is making a good show of it with their strange hatchbacky A-wotsit these days, without compromising their brand.  Hey, they’re even picking up Subaru fanbois as they climb into grown-up-hood! ?

The company will always change to survive; sometimes the change causes consternation with the brand loyalists.  You should read Naim Audio loyalists sweating the small stuff over the company’s evolution to remain relevant, successful, and growing.  Sadly many of us (Naimees, I’m one) miss that we’re a very small niche group amongst a large market, as Dave rightly points out above.

No I mean if they continue down that track.  There is money in boring little econoboxes.  It's what the majority want.

But as we keep saying.  Who cares.  None of us will buy one.  Most of us will stick with the old BMW's we grew up with.  That's where the true fun and pain is.

[Eagle 1662]

Mercedes compromised themselves back in the mid-late 90's starting with that A series abomination. It was pretty much the opposite of everything they stood for until then along with the rest of the failures. Porsche is the only German marque i can think of that seems to have held up for the most part.

I agree we buy what i like, most of the sort after BMW's are in a certain era for a reason even without the nostalgia. Id only buy modern car when there is a fairly priced EPV available that doesn't make me want to throw up.

[kwhelan 241]

28 minutes ago, Eagle said:

 Porsche is the only German marque i can think of that seems to have held up for the most part.

agree Porsche make sports cars and have thrown in a few suvs and things lately to try and keep up market share but you always know its still a drivers car first

jag/aston is probably similar

I don't think you can really say BMW are any different than VAG or merc ,they are mostly about mass producing large numbers of many product lines, they have their niche that helps create a bit of brand difference, (Audi was 4 wd and 5 cyl, bmw was rear wheel drive etc)  but their bread and butter is , saloons, stationwagons and they all include some very hot go faster models that try to cater for the sports driver

It was true in the early days their bread and butter cars e30 etc made great sports vehicles with little changing required but the way the whole industry has improved its knowledge sharing, designer poaching  and engineering its relatively easier for new say korean brands  to achieve those levels now and I guess on a road the theoretical limits of handling/ride and comfort and performance are easily met

bit the same as any cheap smartphone will actually do 90% of what a dearer brand does now

you could argue american muscle cars are getting better and going back oldskool may be the only option for diehard tyre spinners

Edited May 7, 2019 by kwhelan

[KwS 2425]

25 minutes ago, Eagle said:

Porsche is the only German marque i can think of that seems to have held up for the most part.

They still build cars to meet the needs of the market. I suspect the only reason they dont make a FWD econobox like everyone else, is because of VWAG. VW and Audi already have the FWD market covered. BMW doesn't have any other brands under its hat, so of course it's lumped with econoboxes in its own lineup.

BMW wont stop making "fun" ///M cars, even if they are AWD. The only thing a RWD car does better than modern AWD cars is skids/drifts, and whoop de do.

[Olaf 3318]

7 minutes ago, KwS said:

. BMW doesn't have any other brands under its hat, so of course it's lumped with econoboxes in its own lineup.

Errr, Mini?

[Eagle 1662]

18 minutes ago, KwS said:

Stuff

Is that it? If i compared those to what compared that to BMW and Mercedes did you'd be looking pages of pictures. I said for the most part and that's correct.

+1 on the mini, they have owned them and Rolls Royce for along time. 

[kwhelan 241]

I'd own either of those Porsches, still dam good vehicles and despite having more seats get reasonably good reviews don't see your point at all

agree about the m fun cars though, they won't suddenly become unlikeable, its just progress I guess

Edited May 8, 2019 by kwhelan

[Eagle 1662]

No one said they weren't good for what they were designed for. The point was manufacturers making vehicles outside their historical range for reasons already mentioned. If someone said come for a ride in my Porsche and you find out its an SUV you are going have some degree of disappointment. Same as someone saying they bought a new BMW and its an Active Tourer.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2958]

2 hours ago, Driftit said:

No I mean if they continue down that track.  There is money in boring little econoboxes.  It's what the majority want.

If you look at the economics of the car industry closely, to will see that there is NO money in boring little econoboxes, that is part of the problem. It is such a competitive price driven segment of the market that is just screwed on costs and pricing. You have to sell an absolute pile of these cars to make any cash - see Toyota!

What is does is give you some production volume and economes of scale for parts / platforms and off set some of the development and overhead costs of operating a car company, so that you can make some money on the larger stuff.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2958]

15 hours ago, M3AN said:

I would hazard a guess that an enormous percentage of customers (BMW or otherwise) wouldn't even know, let alone care what wheels were driven. That's gotta factor into the equation too.

I consider this lamentable because I'm in the other, tiny slice of the population. ?

I see the next M3 is apparently 2+2 (~500hp). I don't know how far down you'll be able to dial the front split but possibly not 0%.

So, soon it may be the end of RWD BMW's period. Entry level or not. Whatever the reasons, this makes me sad. ?

What's thay saying about you can't keep all of the people happy all of the time? Unfortunately BMW like all car companies is having to adapt and change to survive, and in some ways has had to compromise on it's original prinicples - no turbos on M Cars, RWD, etc. Even though the cars will be FWD the objective is still the same - to make it drive as a BMW should, and to be the best drive in it's class. This will of course mean that many enthusiasts see the change moving away from what they love - RWD N/A in-line sixes for example.

Don't panic about the end of RWD across the whole range, or even M-cars, yes there are more models moving to an xDrive layout, but there is still a place in the model line up for the RWD M car.

AMG have just signalled they are moving to AWD only, for better stability and getting all that power down on the road. 500+ horses through two road tyres is quite a handful in many situations, even for an enthusiast driver.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

doesnt make sence having the car RWD when two of the drive wheels will be electric before long anyway. would make for a hell of a lot of weight out the front you lot would complain about that then.

Have drive a bunch of modern FWD cars in my new job, the Golf GTI i hate to admit is light years better than the rest, a phenominal car, and i can honestly say i cared not that it was FWD.

[qube 3570]

is the future of RWD vs FWD discussion the new E46M3 SMG vs manual discussion? 

[KwS 2425]

5 hours ago, Olaf said:

Errr, Mini?

haha sh*t, and i've even owned one ?

Still a very niche brand though.

[qube 3570]

imagine if they built a mini with a B58 3L engine + RWD.... man that would be awsome

[Olaf 3318]

26 minutes ago, qube said:

imagine if they built a mini with a B58 3L engine + RWD.... man that would be awsome

Mini fanbois would be in therapy.... "they've gone REAR wheel drive?  Wa wa wha WHY!?"

[Olaf 3318]

There used to be a mini in my suburb when I was growing up.  Orange.  With full RX2 running gear.  It was beautifully done.

[KwS 2425]

39 minutes ago, qube said:

imagine if they built a mini with a B58 3L engine + RWD.... man that would be awsome

The packaging would be terrible. Would need a massive trans tunnel and high boot floor to fit diff. Oh wait, maybe that's why they want to go FWD....

[qube 3570]

put the engine in the back then

[Gaz 1061]

1 hour ago, qube said:

put the engine in the back then

Yeah but then you'd already be copying the Japanese 

https://www.driven.co.nz/reviews/classic-cars/ultimate-honda-little-old-civic-transformed-into-a-mid-engined-rear-wheel-beast/?ref=driven_fbpage

[KwS 2425]

Or the NZ built Speed Science ITR with NSX engine mid mounted