Taxing the Electricity that Charges EV's- UK

[NZ00Z3 189]

An interesting move in the UK, as from 30 June 2022, all home EV chargers must be smart chargers.  Separately metered and able to be controlled remotely.

Why?

• Recovery of road tax that is normally recovered via the purchase of petrol
• Control of the electricity grid peak load

 

It will be interesting to see how the N.Z. Govt handles these issues? 

• Road User Charges for EV's?  Currently free.  But watch this space when the penetration of EV's start to impact the Govt Coffers.
• Electricity Network owners are all struggling with the future high impact of the EV charging load.  Effectively doubling there peak load on a network the has little or no future EV growth room due to the "Optimised Deprival Value" methodology they are forced by the Govt to use when building major improvements.  There is no fat in the system and they simply can't build the network fast enough for electric car charging loads.  Will you have enough charge for that urgent trip when the Network Owner has drained your battery to support their network peaks?

 

Do I want to buy an electric car?  Not at the moment.  They are too expensive, battery life is a concern and the playing field on operating costs is a shifting muddy quagmire.

 

Roll on Green Hydrogen and Green synthetic petrol.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/motorists-warned-as-new-driving-law-may-lead-to-sinister-implications-for-car-tax-costs/ar-AAXLcPw?li=AAnZ9Ug

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/driving-law-changes-all-home-ev-chargepoints-will-need-smart-chargers-from-next-month/ar-AAXIfdT?li=AAnZ9Ug

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

1 hour ago, NZ00Z3 said:

It will be interesting to see how the N.Z. Govt handles these issues? 

• Road User Charges for EV's?  Currently free.  But watch this space when the penetration of EV's start to impact the Govt Coffers.

Rules on RUCs on EVs have been in place for a long time. EVs are subject to RUC, there has been an “exemption” in place for a number of years and was until either a set date or the total number of EVs on the road reached a certain percentage. The end date has been moved out a couple of times but it has now been stated it won’t move again, iirc it’s some time in 2023.

 Cost of electricity + RUC will still be way cheaper per km than petrol or diesel.

As for the supply grid, a lot rests on the closure of the smelting plant down south freeing up a lot of capacity. With the vast majority of charging done at home the flexibility is there to use “off-peak” periods.

[kwhelan 241]

2 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Rules on RUCs on EVs have been in place for a long time. EVs are subject to RUC, there has been an “exemption” in place for a number of years and was until either a set date or the total number of EVs on the road reached a certain percentage. The end date has been moved out a couple of times but it has now been stated it won’t move again, iirc it’s some time in 2023.

 Cost of electricity + RUC will still be way cheaper per km than petrol or diesel.

As for the supply grid, a lot rests on the closure of the smelting plant down south freeing up a lot of capacity. With the vast majority of charging done at home the flexibility is there to use “off-peak” periods.

closing a smelting plant does nothing to power in Auckland, it can't be transferred from one end of country to the other. and flexibility is bollocks, 95% of evs will arrive home after 5pm to go on charge. Unless private companies like wilsons install them all through their multistory carparks

then you got places like wellington where every govt worker lives with the car parked on the street down a cliff from the house, going to be a lot of extension leads

the whole thing is a joke

until they agree to build a nuclear sub sized reactor in a container and place it somewhere near auckland they are screwed.

aus the country with the largest private solar panel input has now realised it screws the power companies up, they still need to have the generating capacity to cover nights and windless days etc but they also lose all the profits of being sole supplier . their business model doesn't work basically when you have people all giving power back to the grid at unneeded times, but you still need to cover them with generation capacity in case.

Edited May 27, 2022 by kwhelan

[lord_jagganath 421]

if greece can do it...

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

43 minutes ago, lord_jagganath said:

if greece can do it...

That's an appalling summary which ignores the cost and the vastly different scale. Political will isn't the issue here, it's physics.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

1 hour ago, kwhelan said:

closing a smelting plant does nothing to power in Auckland, it can't be transferred from one end of country to the other. and flexibility is bollocks, 95% of evs will arrive home after 5pm to go on charge. Unless private companies like wilsons install them all through their multistory carparks

then you got places like wellington where every govt worker lives with the car parked on the street down a cliff from the house, going to be a lot of extension leads

the whole thing is a joke

Aren’t there two big cables under the Cook Straight already? I’m not saying send the power from Tiwai to Auckland, but it’s a supply grid, use that capacity for SI and then any spare can move north until it gets to Auckland (simplistic and very non-scientific explanation, sorry).

Yes, they arrive home after 5pm but most chargers have a timer function for when you want it to start and stop so you can choose low rate periods.

Agree, home charging doesn’t work for everyone (here’s a tip don’t use an extension lead!!) that is where workplaces or possibly public chargers enter the equation.

It is worth pointing out that not EVERY EV needs to be charged EVERY night. Traffic stats show very few people travel more than 100kms in a day. With 600km range that’s a charge once a week.

Yes, there are new factors to be considered and some clever solutions to be found, but I’m afraid it is not a joke it is very real and it’s already happening. There have been over 5,500 NEW electric vehicles put on the roads in NZ this year already. Not including all the used Japanese import Leafs (Leaves?) coming in.

[aja540i 1906]

It will involve a shift in thinking on the part of employers, allowing workers to charge at workplaces, installing solar etc, and it will involve the government incentivising things like that to slowly change our energy use habits.

A few fast chargers here and there are not going to cut it.

I choose to believe that the govt realizes this but they have yet to figure out a good way to con us into paying more tax to cover the cost, so far congestion tax and dirty car tax seem to be front runners....

[Cammsport 390]

2 hours ago, kwhelan said:

closing a smelting plant does nothing to power in Auckland, it can't be transferred from one end of country to the other. and flexibility is bollocks

Wait, do you think there's separate grids for the NI and SI? The HVDC cables travel from Benmore to Welly and back. Most of the MWs travel north to the load heavy North Island from the generation rich South Island. 

Closing Tiwai smelter would free up MWs (approximately 500MWh) from Manapori to be used elsewhere on the grid (but other issues would arise beyond the energy sector). 

I think smart meters for car chargers is a brilliant idea if your electricity supplier let's you have the wholesale price. During winter, the wholesale price can be as low as $0.01 at night. This would lower household electricity bills and stop constraints on the grid (which also drives up energy prices) during peak periods. 

[kwhelan 241]

its very complicated but the cook cables are old and not designed to take tiwai capacity, yes power is obviously transported from south to north but it doesn't get all the way to the top,too much loss etc and its not like  you can suddenly double it.

Im not denying EV are here to stay and going to be huge but even california is turning off and asking people to not charge their vehicles due to overloading

smart charger , yes they have a timer but you are still asking every car owner to try to recharge from 5 till say 7am and most are 6 hours plus so there is tremendous overlap of times and to say that its cheap because its off peak rates.

do you really think it will still be off peak when everyone has a EV and is charging overnight it will be max peak and charged as such,

 

[aja540i 1906]

Except you are not going to get every car owner charging their ev all night every night, much the same way that every car owner doesn't put a tank full of gas in their car every day.

There are plenty of options to spread out the demand, it will just take some incentives to get people to adjust their behavior.

I wonder how much less demand there is on the grid now that we are not refining petrol at Marsden point?....

[kwhelan 241]

judging buy how much indonesian coal we are importing absolutely nil it would appear

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/447679/new-zealand-likely-to-have-record-high-imports-of-coal-in-2021-officials

[Arron 227]

1 hour ago, aja540i said:

Except you are not going to get every car owner charging their ev all night every night, much the same way that every car owner doesn't put a tank full of gas in their car every day.

There are plenty of options to spread out the demand, it will just take some incentives to get people to adjust their behavior.

I wonder how much less demand there is on the grid now that we are not refining petrol at Marsden point?....

so, the problem is not the amount of power we generate as a country. it is the delivery infrastructure

we have a family member who works as a grid manager for Orion, and have had several in depth conversations with them about the difficulties they are facing with the governments mind numbing blindness to all the other issues and infrastructure challenges that EV's cause.

Our current supply network in the majority of the country is not not capable of delivering a solution to a mass adoption of EV vehicles. for an example, There has just been a multi million dollar sub station placed out the back of Rolleston to power the majority of Rolleston, this was finished early last year and was expected to last for a further 5-7 years of development out that way.  HOWEVER, only 18 months later and this substation is at its peak capability due to the mass expanse of Rolleston and the surrounding areas.  yes, they can pull another line down from the HV lines running down the south island and build another substation but the cost is monumental when they have to start doing this to literally cater for EV's. This is only 1 example, there are literally hundreds of other examples like this. 

not only is the supply grid not upto standard, the supply lines to older houses are also not upto standard when you start looking at households that end up with multiple EV's. these are all issues that Orion are already facing with the small uptake we have currently.

Our current network can not support what people (the gubberment) are looking to achieve, the amount of money that needs to be spend to deliver infrastructure to support it is truly mind blowing

further comments above were trying to say that electric vehicles will be remarkedly cheaper to run than a traditional vehicle, this is simply not going to be true. you look at normal service items (tires, brakes, cv's that sort of stuff) and the maintenance cost will be about the same as a dinosaur burning monster. yet, you have a stupid amount of $$$ required every 10 years ish (if you are lucky it will be that long) for replacement battery packs. if you actually look at it, on the grand scheme of things it will be much of a muchness in regards to running costs. I would be very surprised if we don't see something along the lines of a independent electricity rate for EV chargers. 

now speaking of battery packs, are EV's really "cleaner" than current solutions? absolutely not. the footprint of a modern EV can arguably be pointed as being the same, if not bigger than a traditional vehicle over its lifetime.  where do the batteries go, sure, they can be recycled... sent to the other side of the world on ughhhhh dinosaur burning ships. oooo the irony, what about the pollutants released when we start having mass amounts of fires both caused from the EV itself and overloading of infrastructure

Call me a cynic or whatever you want but on so many levels this proposed mass adoption seems wrong for so many reasons... as with anything on this planet, it's not what we are doing but the amount in which we are doing it. If suddenly you could click your fingers and every.single.vehicle was electric there would be other issues based on the numbers..... still comes down to the plain and simple fact that the world id overpopulated! bring back natural selection hahaha

 

to be clear, I am not against the implementation of the EV at all, however trying to push for a mass adoption is the worst idea. but it's a catch 22 as no vehicle manufacturer is really coming out with a "better" alternative at this point!

 

Bit of a rant! enjoy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[polley 916]

8 hours ago, lord_jagganath said:

if greece can do it...

174km total length. wippdy doo. 

tiwai to picton. 900 km.

tiwai to auckland 1600km

there is already a HVDC link from benmore to wellington.

Even if we can generate the electricity we dont have the rest of the infrastructure to bring it to your house. add to that the dumb f**ks in government want to shut down gas / coal fired industrial boilers and run them on electricity? even small factory's are running boilers in the 10MW range.

One little cold snap last year and we had rolling blackouts. 

[aja540i 1906]

Totally agree that our current supply grid is not up to the task, but just pouring billions of dollars into upgrading that grid might not be the best solution. When I got my EV I also invested in rooftop solar at home, it provides enough power to keep my car charged and export some to the grid, obviously no good at night but if it were on the very large roof of the factory where I work and I could plug my EV in while I was at work it would provide all my transport energy needs and take load of the supply grid. A large enough system would cover the transport energy needs of 20 odd staff, repeat as necessary, consider solar systems at carport buildings, park and rides etc.

These are the options the government needs to be seriously considering if they want mass adoption of EVs.

[kwhelan 241]

48 minutes ago, aja540i said:

Totally agree that our current supply grid is not up to the task, but just pouring billions of dollars into upgrading that grid might not be the best solution. When I got my EV I also invested in rooftop solar at home, it provides enough power to keep my car charged and export some to the grid, obviously no good at night but if it were on the very large roof of the factory where I work and I could plug my EV in while I was at work it would provide all my transport energy needs and take load of the supply grid. A large enough system would cover the transport energy needs of 20 odd staff, repeat as necessary, consider solar systems at carport buildings, park and rides etc.

These are the options the government needs to be seriously considering if they want mass adoption of EVs.

like I alluded to above, those home panels actually add costs to the generators and their business models go out the window, they build a power station to provide power 24/7 not just to cover the times your panels arn't working.

we will need more generation to cope anybody can see that, no dams allowed, no gas, wind requires 80-100 % backup so you need another system of equal size to cope with slow days,solar similar,  more coal , oh and shipped on a evil diesil ship  hmmm

your getting away with it currently but it all falls over once you reach a critical mass

a bit like not paying ruc, good on you for being ahead of the curve but its not going to end well

UK power bills have doubled in last 12 months with power estimated at anything from 10-25% of entire household income

AUS power costs have doubled in SA , Queensland in last 12 months and expected to keep going higher

this is a greenie costs tho, not blaming EVS for that

Europe, US and others are all asking people to not charge cars and cut power use due to oversubscription and wind/solar not performing as promised

alot of insurance companies are getting very jumpy about EVs charging and house fires

every day there's another video of some electric bus igniting into a fireball usually parked at the time and boy there spectacular

and this is now becoming a problem?

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/128270062/shipping-giant-mol-confirms-it-has-stopped-carrying-used-evs-over-safety-concern

 

 

[kwhelan 241]

heres a study done by tesla itself on total cost of ownership,fuel prices have risen since the war but so has electricity in most countries

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/lifestyle/shopping/tesla-model-3-rwd-5-year-cost-of-ownership-versus-toyota-camry/ar-AAXlNl9?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=1143af5eb9614155823b060221cf3161

 

[NZ00Z3 189]

The real problem is getting off Dinosaur fuel.  There are very few good options because you want to shift the massive volume of energy provided by Dinosaur fuel onto another energy type:

Electric Cars:

• Good for the light vehicle fleet.  Not suitable for the Heavy Vehicle fleet.  Imagine leaving Auckland in a Heavy supermarket truck, and have to recharge every 300 km.  You're heading to Dunedin.  How long is it going to take you?
• In the short term the Electricity will come from thermal generation, that's still Dinosaur fuel.
• Wind and Solar are the long term suppliers.  The Generation stack has to use hydro as the strategic back-up and not Huntly/thermal/dinosaur fuel.  This means hydro operators need to be paid for keeping the dams full and we need to build 1,000's of MW of wind and solar.  Expect and new wind or solar farm near you soon.
• The network needed to supply the massive extra amount of energy.  Be it south to north or within a regions network, the capacity  is not there.  It's going to take decades to build.
• The environmental footprint of the EV is questionable.  There are arguments for and against this topic.

 

Green Hydrogen

• This is being investigated for the heavy vehicle fleet.  The technology and infrastructure can then be applied to the light vehicle fleet.
• The massive amount of extra energy is provided by Electricity.  So, the lack of new generation still applies.  The lack of network capacity still applies when you try to centralise the Green Hydrogen production near cities.  The only glint of help is Tiwai Point.  Generation in place, Network in place, Near a large water source (Southern Ocean).
• Requires refilling station infrastructure, so reuse the petrol stations.
• Fuel Cell technology is up to speed
• Green Hydrogen in an internal combustion engine (ICE) is viable.
• Hydrogen embrittlement of metals and materials is a real problem for Green Hydrogen to get the 5 star safety rating.

 

Synthetic Fuels

• These replace Petrol and Diesel.  You keep your car.  The petrol station just supplies a different product. Consumer infrastructure is in place all ready
• The massive amount of extra energy is provided by Electricity.  So, the lack of new generation still applies.  The lack of network capacity still applies when you try to centralise the Synthetic fuel production near cities.  The only glint of help is Tiwai Point.  Generation in place, Network in place, Near a port for shipping it North.
• The technology is ready.  The Large Industries and Political will are too far invested into EV's to see the sense of this option.

 

Summary

• Electricity (generation and grid) is the only alternative energy source that is technology ready to supply the massive amount of energy to replace Dinosaur fuel.  Expect massive wind and solar builds in a paddock near you.
• The final consumer product needs to be debated.  EV's don't support heavy transport.  Green Hydrogen and Synthetic fuels are ready to go and are better options
• The Govts seems to be taking the political approach of "We have to be seen to do something.  A decision, any decision, even if it's wrong, is better than being seen to do nothing".  EV's are nearer to being ready than the others, so they have just chosen them to be seen to be doing something.

 

[gjm 3258]

On 5/27/2022 at 9:05 AM, NZ00Z3 said:

Roll on Green Hydrogen and Green synthetic petrol.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/motorists-warned-as-new-driving-law-may-lead-to-sinister-implications-for-car-tax-costs/ar-AAXLcPw?li=AAnZ9Ug

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/driving-law-changes-all-home-ev-chargepoints-will-need-smart-chargers-from-next-month/ar-AAXIfdT?li=AAnZ9Ug

Hydrogen, either as fuel for ICE or for fuel cells, for the win!

Of course, the power companies in NZ aren't in any hurry to see that happen. Work may start on a hydrogen plant in HB in 2035...

Edited May 27, 2022 by gjm

[polley 916]

20 minutes ago, gjm said:

Hydrogen, either as fuel for ICE or for fuel cells, for the win!

Of course, the power companies in NZ aren't in any hurry to see that happen. Work may start on a hydrogen plant in HB in 2035...

And what are they going to use to produce that hydrogen ?

 

[NZ00Z3 189]

20 minutes ago, polley said:

And what are they going to use to produce that hydrogen ?

Using electricity to split water.

Yes, water is going to become the new fuel of the future.  People/large companies/dictators are going to want to own it and control it.  Wars are going to be waged over it.  We have one now in N.Z called "3 Waters".  Watch Labour socialise it and National sell it.

[aja540i 1906]

19 minutes ago, NZ00Z3 said:

Using electricity to split water.

Yes, water is going to become the new fuel of the future.  People/large companies/dictators are going to want to own it and control it.  Wars are going to be waged over it.  We have one now in N.Z called "3 Waters".  Watch Labour socialise it and National sell it.

Point is you still need a huge amount of electricity, which is the limiting factor in the system whatever the alternative to petrol is.

[NZ00Z3 189]

15 minutes ago, aja540i said:

Point is you still need a huge amount of electricity, which is the limiting factor in the system whatever the alternative to petrol is.

Yes, I totally agree.

So, why are we not seeing lots of news articles about all the resource consenting for new solar and wind farms?  After all, that is the first sign that the Govt owned generation companies are on board and pushing as hard as they can to build the needed generation.

[kwhelan 241]

2 hours ago, NZ00Z3 said:

Yes, I totally agree.

So, why are we not seeing lots of news articles about all the resource consenting for new solar and wind farms?  After all, that is the first sign that the Govt owned generation companies are on board and pushing as hard as they can to build the needed generation.

because overseas its been tried and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, old plant litters deserts everywhere, kills wildlife like crazy and is hard to dispose of. costs to install aren't recovered There isn't a serious scientist worldwide including the founder of greenpeace that now doesn't agree that nuclear is the cleanest safest fuel generation, not cherynobl size just little nuclear sub sized

easily moved to where they need to be, easily covered if something goes wrong but the tech of nuclear has come along way anyway

subs are all have reasonable safety records so far , we just need to convince the public but in the end it will happen

watch europe recommission nuclear big time now that they are bent over by Putin and have finally realised

[kwhelan 241]

I don't deny EVs are here to stay, rightly or wrongly its going to happen,  we all seem to agree that NZ will do it badly without thinking the whole thing through generation wise etc  but it will still happen.

Considering we are sitting on gigantic oil reserves and could have been the next Oman, UAE it does make you cringe a bit but .we've gone from one of the highest standards of living in the world in the 60s to this so I guess it's inevitable.Just wish people would wake up and question a few things, have some critical thoughts for a change instead of just following Hillary Barry.

its not about saving the planet they don't give a toss about that, oil companies are the major shareholders in the renewables, they have just realised its a way to scrap everything and sell you all something ne w.

just follow the money, its always about the money

when you realise it always ends up at the same 2 companies you see we are just hamsters on a wheel

 

[polley 916]

7 hours ago, NZ00Z3 said:

Using electricity to split water.

Yes, water is going to become the new fuel of the future.  People/large companies/dictators are going to want to own it and control it.  Wars are going to be waged over it.  We have one now in N.Z called "3 Waters".  Watch Labour socialise it and National sell it.

Yeah so electricity is needed anyway. Back to square one.