N54 rebuild who’s the best?

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

at which point wouldn't you be better off buying an M3 of a later generation? unless you have a love affair with you particular car.

[Benji335i 21]

15 hours ago, _ethrty-Andy_ said:

at which point wouldn't you be better off buying an M3 of a later generation? unless you have a love affair with you particular car.

I have a love affair buddy!! 

Plus I want to use what I got, if I were to buy I would want an M4 but this modding plus the value of my car wouldn’t amount to an M4

[Benji335i 21]

3 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Why piss about with a measly 600 -- Go hard or go home-  strap two of these on your stock engine - don't worry about all the internal sh*t:  cranks and pistons, just replace the entire motor every 5 minutes - will last longer in traffic and in the garage. 

 

If you’re not going to be helpful, f**k off. Tbh you come across as a middle aged prick, fed up of asking this forum for advice if some of you are going to be no help or give me pointless and unecessary advice. 

 

[GorGasm 563]

What's your budget?  This will limit what you can do.

[Stevie S 49]

Tuned to 600hp you will have issues even if everything is forged.  Drive train, additional fuel supply, all the other additional parts.  These cars throw many problems at you when stock. If you want trouble free motoring, a 600hp n54 wouldn't be it.  

[Benji335i 21]

12 hours ago, GorGasm said:

What's your budget?  This will limit what you can do.

Taking it each step at a time, was thinking max 10-15k

[Benji335i 21]

7 minutes ago, Stevie S said:

Tuned to 600hp you will have issues even if everything is forged.  Drive train, additional fuel supply, all the other additional parts.  These cars throw many problems at you when stock. If you want trouble free motoring, a 600hp n54 wouldn't be it.  

Fueling wise I’ll be getting the fuel it stage 4 LPFP and port injection. A lot of the Americans don’t seem to have issues 

[Benji335i 21]

3 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

I'll take that as a compliment - i'll leave you to answering your own mindnumbingly stupid questions  ( just like Donald does) while I focus on my latest engine build 

In all honesty they weren’t stupid mind dumbing questions, I was merely after advice and pointers in the right direction due to tuning not being my strong point, and your we’re just being a patronising unhelpful arse hole. You do that and all the best. 

Some ppl here have helped but other forums have been so much more. It’s a shame, I thought forums are meant to bring people together who share the same passion, obviously not this one. 

[Young Thrash Driver 1020]

I see you have met our resident Forum Troll and made friends. How nice. Don't feed him, it only encourages... otherwise, "Ron gunna Ron". Be warned it may take a while for him to realise you are serious now he is on a roll. He is capable of sharing genuinely useful information and ideas (no really) if you are prepared to stop being butthurt and engage intelligently with him. He may even draw you a spreadsheet!

Good luck.

[Herbmiester 925]

I say do it build a 600hp engine and then give the middle finger to the Trolls. I know it can be done but as mentioned you will have to beef up the driveline. If you have an early 335i you should have the large diff and that will probably be ok as long as you dont hammer it off the line. That said getting off the line will be tricky, at around 400hp I am already struggling to hook up. I dont know how strong the manual boxes are but the auto will likely reach its torque limit pretty quicly. Nispro in Australia were working on beefed up internals for the ZF box and the have experience here doing similar work on the bigger ZF box that sits behind the excellent Aussie Barra Turbo engine. N54s run warm so look at better options for the radiator and oil cooler/s. New rear sub frame mounts would also be wortwhile.

 

[Benji335i 21]

1 hour ago, Young Thrash Driver said:

I see you have met our resident Forum Troll and made friends. How nice. Don't feed him, it only encourages... otherwise, "Ron gunna Ron". Be warned it may take a while for him to realise you are serious now he is on a roll. He is capable of sharing genuinely useful information and ideas (no really) if you are prepared to stop being butthurt and engage intelligently with him. He may even draw you a spreadsheet!

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice mate, I will gladly engage intelligent with him but he needs to stop being some what of an arse hole, and I thought it was just the poms (I am one) that we’re those haha! 

Anyway i am serious about this build so I’ll keep the ones that are genuinely interested in the loop.

[Benji335i 21]

41 minutes ago, Herbmiester said:

I say do it build a 600hp engine and then give the middle finger to the Trolls. I know it can be done but as mentioned you will have to beef up the driveline. If you have an early 335i you should have the large diff and that will probably be ok as long as you dont hammer it off the line. That said getting off the line will be tricky, at around 400hp I am already struggling to hook up. I dont know how strong the manual boxes are but the auto will likely reach its torque limit pretty quicly. Nispro in Australia were working on beefed up internals for the ZF box and the have experience here doing similar work on the bigger ZF box that sits behind the excellent Aussie Barra Turbo engine. N54s run warm so look at better options for the radiator and oil cooler/s. New rear sub frame mounts would also be wortwhile.

 

Thank you for being positive and taking me seriously mate. 

I aim to beef up everything tbh, it will be done in stages, I have been taking the chassis into account driveshaft and diff.

supposedly my trans will handle it, I have a 2009 DCT.

i have a list of mods half of which I have. 

Currently I’ve looked at internals, twin turbo set up, fueling too! 

If anyone knows does the 335i have an LSD (and no for the smart arses not acid) 

thanks again 

[Palazzo 477]

As I said before, by all means prove me wrong with a project log, dyno runs and maintenance log once it's done.

 

Personally, I don't think you (or anyone else) can reliably achieve 600+ rwhp (700 + crank) from that motor, but give it a go if you think it's achievable. Me, I think you'll need a miracle from the Bishop.

 

If you do get there, based on the torque figure above, your DCT will be under major stress.

 

I would also think you'd go single turbo, but that's just me. 

 

If you get there (reliably), I'll buy you a beer.

[Benji335i 21]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

P.S a  fact for you GS7D36SG (DCT gearbox fitted to your car) is factory rated at 520Nm max  so find out what sort of torque your build will produce and you will know if it will handle it. 

I plan to do this properly and focus on the whole package not just the power output. 

The 520NM is the conservative figure set my Getrag.  However  that figure is off what a company website says that doesnt want to be liable for miss leading or miss representing its product. So instead they under rate it. Im sure no one at bmw would say the n54 is rated for 700whp but it can certainly do it.

i will upgrade the TCU software which I have already done and I’ll be getting SSP gaskets, filter and clutch pack. 

The gearbox is identical to the new M3 and M4 and can handle there power output....

anyway this build won’t be rushed will be done properly with no short cuts!!

 

[Jacko 2156]

5 hours ago, Benji335i said:

 

If anyone knows does the 335i have an LSD (and no for the smart arses not acid) 

 

No LSD on anything but M cars in the "Modern" BMWs. It'll be one tyre fire e diff. Its crazy, but one of the things BMW use to differentiate regular cars to the M cars.  

Birds quaife diffs seem like the best option. 

[M3AN 4016]

Don't forget engine management systems. If you're going to get up to 600hp then a lot of that is going to be as a result of compressed air so you'll need a sophisticated engine management system that has boost management with infinitely variable ramp settings and fine wastegate control. Think about how you're going to manage traction and launch control as well.

Water injection should be considered to help eliminate detonation.

Intercooler efficiency and auxiliary cooling for that are also worth thinking about, it's going to get real hot under there at these levels and you need to maintain density.

I have no idea about the engine itself but I agree with recent comments; make sure all the loaded elements are forged and all the friction elements are coated, use the highest grade fixtures, gaskets and rings available.

Can you bore or stroke these? That might actually be a good way to start if you can.

However you proceed I'd like to see it.

 

[Navin 180]

Here's a quote I got for a complete exchange diff with a Quaife lsd installed for my car a while ago from Birds in the UK. You get the exchange surcharge back once they receive your stock Diff in return.

 

[Benji335i 21]

35 minutes ago, M3AN said:

Don't forget engine management systems. If you're going to get up to 600hp then a lot of that is going to be as a result of compressed air so you'll need a sophisticated engine management system that has boost management with infinitely variable ramp settings and fine wastegate control. Think about how you're going to manage traction and launch control as well.

Water injection should be considered to help eliminate detonation.

Intercooler efficiency and auxiliary cooling for that are also worth thinking about, it's going to get real hot under there at these levels and you need to maintain density.

I have no idea about the engine itself but I agree with recent comments; make sure all the loaded elements are forged and all the friction elements are coated, use the highest grade fixtures, gaskets and rings available.

Can you bore or stroke these? That might actually be a good way to start if you can.

However you proceed I'd like to see it.

 

ECU will be custom tuned, incorporating all my mods.

i already have:

Catless downpipes

7” FMIC

Charge pipe

bmw P exhaust 

oil catch can 

oil cooler valve 

updated PCV and cap

Latest Bmw injectors 

delphi ignition coil kit 

2 step spark plugs 

drive belt kit

1st step is to forge what I have

Then I will deal with ge chassis, drivetrain, diff and trans. 

Lastly is the turbo kit with necessary fueling.

Appreciate the advice and guidance. 

 

 

 

[HaNs 226]

Go talk to taylor automotive 

[Benji335i 21]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

No totally wrong. 

When engineers design things they set out their design criteria, the DCT box is modular and designed to cover engines from 100 to 500Nm output,  engineers  use "safety or overload factors"  these vary with application  for example a gearbox used with  a large diesel engine in a truck needs a load factor safety  because of the system inertia. 

The 500Nm rating is the design maximum that will provide the reliability and performance criteria agreed by the manufacturer and their clients

Hotted up Volkwagens and BMWs with DCT boxes do experience clutch slippage and other issues. Some run torque limiting software others run increased oil pressures to provide higher clutch clamping forces.  If you have a look at the dyno curves of most of the hotted up N54's you will notice they run low boost up to about 3,000 RPM then ramp it up - this is to reduce the shock inertia loads on the drive train and to make it driveable. 

Jaguar frequently used ZF and Getrag gearboxes one or two sizes down from BMW and frequently have reliability issues - Standard BMW X5's blow gearboxes and diffs because people tow oversized loads with them - the "safety and load margins" are not as high as you may think. 

If you UNDERSTAND the design criteria of the various components then you can make informed decisions about how far you can push the envelope and still retain an accepable level of reliability. 

Setting the clear parameters of your product is not arse covering or avoiding or anti miss leading - it is simply being honest and responsible - this not necessarily true for those offering to get 500kW from a 50cc scooter engine. 

 

 

Appreciate the advice, I just thought manufacturers are very conservative with figures to cover there backs! 

If that’s the case I intend to uprate the clutch components SSP over a lot for my gear box!! 

Move already updated the software which increases the pressure applied.

it will be a slow build I’m in no rush and I don’t plan to cut any corners either.

your input is appreciated and I’ll do every precaution necessary so I have no issues. 

 

[Benji335i 21]

2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

So the key take out for this is : you need to "identify the corners" so you can plan to get around them - making assumptions like " manufacturers are just out to cover their arse" will just have you straight lining the corners.

I gave you a figure of 750 Nm at 7000 RPM to get your target wheel power, however if you decided to go for peak power at 6500 then torque jumps to 800Nm   and about 850 if you go for 6,300 RPM so you should start developing some parameters so you can then work out what follows. I also used an assumed drive train loss of 18% - you should check  this as it is what we use for a rear drive manual config.  

My custom tune is written for this transmission car. 

The trans is a GS7D36SG,  Getrag DCI600, same trans internally as a M DCT.  The "600" denotes the rated NM for it.  If you experience clutch slippage in a DCT at under 600 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels it's because the tune/tuner hasn't/ doesn't know how to tune for a DCT.  DCT adjust line pressure based on calculated load it sees from the DME.   If you're making sure the DCT TCU is seeing the high load, then the TCU adjusts the line pressure higher to compensate for the higher load on the clutches.

Out of all N54 DCT tuned cars pushing 500lb+ torque not one has gone. This does not mean I won’t cut corners with it. It’s just the trans is stronger than is made out to be. 

The tune is a DCT specific tune so all factors are taken into consideration 

[Stevie S 49]

you going twins or single? whos kit are you going to use?

[polley 916]

People build 600hp cars all the time, out of smaller and older engines, and they last for years. 

 

If you're not racing it the time it spends making 600hp is minimal. Can't really imagine anywhere on the road you could keep your foot up it for more than a few seconds before you either sh*t your pants, stack it or run out of road. Even 4-500 hp is a lot for a road going car

 

If your gearbox is rated at 500nm, that's likely to be at 100% of the time for 100's of thousands of kms. 750nm for a second or two here and there probably isn't going to grenade it immediately.

[polley 916]

30 minutes ago, Benji335i said:

My custom tune is written for this transmission car. 

The trans is a GS7D36SG,  Getrag DCI600, same trans internally as a M DCT.  The "600" denotes the rated NM for it.  If you experience clutch slippage in a DCT at under 600 ft/lbs of torque at the wheels it's because the tune/tuner hasn't/ doesn't know how to tune for a DCT.  DCT adjust line pressure based on calculated load it sees from the DME.   If you're making sure the DCT TCU is seeing the high load, then the TCU adjusts the line pressure higher to compensate for the higher load on the clutches.

Out of all N54 DCT tuned cars pushing 500lb+ torque not one has gone. This does not mean I won’t cut corners with it. It’s just the trans is stronger than is made out to be. 

The tune is a DCT specific tune so all factors are taken into consideration 

It will be rated at input torque, not at the wheels. Diff ratio multiplys the torque at wheels but does not change the torque at the input of gearbox.

[m325i 709]

This would be a good start