Understanding alignment sheet

[qube 3570]

Hi guys,

Just wondering if someone can explain this alignment sheet to me.

The rear axle was not touched apparently as rear tyres were well worn and there was camber wear on the inner edge - you can see that the rear toe has not been changed. (is this correct? I have never had an alignment shop tell me they cant adjust something due to tyre condition, they also tried to up-sell me some expensive tyres which I dont need right now)

Anyway, if my understanding is correct, positive number means toe IN, so does that mean the left wheel points inwards of 5.4mm and the right wheel points inwards of 1.2mm? or if target data of 2.5mm is the "correct" position for the vehicle, does that mean the left wheel is toe in by 2.9mm and the right wheel is toe out by 1.3mm?

Obviously the tyres will need changing and will get a re-alignment done then.

My problem (before and after the half alignment was done) is that the car drifts left when trying to go straight. I know that the roads slope left but this isnt the issue. I have read that rear toe problems can cause a wrong thrust angle, so by having a toe in at the back does that result in the car turning left? (makes sense)

Thanks!

 

[B.M.W Ltd 950]

Have a talk to Autolign in Carbine Road Panmure

[Herbmiester 923]

The rear Toe angle looks wrong.  There is a bracket that holds the rear arm in place and inside it is the rear trailing arm bush. That barcket needs to be adjusted to doe the rear toe angle.  It is common for E46 RTAB's to fail just like on an E36. Anyway that's the main issue I can see with that alignment. If it is the RTAB's then its a pretty straight forward fix, you can replace with standard bushes, Standard with lateral limiters, M3 bush's or Poly bush's. If they are originals its like they are pretty stuffed. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Herbmiester

[qube 3570]

Haha herb. Yes the rear toe is wrong because they didnt touch it. 
its not a bmw btw

[Herbmiester 923]

50 minutes ago, qube said:

Haha herb. Yes the rear toe is wrong because they didnt touch it. 
its not a bmw btw

Sorry had it in my mind it was an E46. Strange however that they refused to doe the rear.

 

[M3AN 4016]

What car is it? That's quite important to know before assessing an alignment, especially the drive wheels and what on the suspension is actually adjustable. If it's a RWD being driven hard you probably want negative toe up front (toe out) and compensating positive toe at the rear (toe in).

The only reason I can think of not to attack the rear because of "camber wear" is that if that wear was so bad the contact patch would be compromised with adjusted camber... and if it were that bad then you'd need new tyres anyway.

Did you pay for the alignment?

[zero 1162]

This demonstrates why you should always go to a good alignment place.

 

Autolign is the only place I will go in the future.

[qube 3570]

its the mini cooper s. 

im going to get new tyres fitted and get it balanced and aligned properly. I think it definitely needs some new bushes but lets see how I get on with the new tyres. the rear tyres were on it's last breath anyway so it was time for a change.

[Eagle 1662]

Yes both rear wheels are pointing inward as you describe. I would of questioned it before driving off to see why they didn't bother, they probably cbf'd or didnt know how would be my guess, if something was damaged or worn you'd think they would of told you.

[M3AN 4016]

According to the stock spec they want toe in front and rear. That's a very safe configuration but it's not particularly sporty.

The most concerning thing on that chart is the L/R delta at the rear, that certainly needs fixing.

[Michael. 2313]

Alignments are only as good as the cars condition, the test equipment and the person doing the work, so plenty of room for error. 

One place I went to in the past couldn't do alignments properly at a certain time in the afternoon as the sun would shine and reflect into the laser sensors, throwing them off - just pathetic! 

I've been going to Autolign at 5/99 Carbine Road, Mount Wellington for the last few years and had great results every time.

My active suspension Soarer with it's 4 wheel steering is very sensitive to bad wheel alignments so it really matters, the last one I had done post changes was perfect, never driven better. 

[qube 3570]

Ive also used autolign numerous times since back in 2008 and know they are good. but that is not my question or concern.
 

I was just trying to understand the numbers on the alignment sheet so it makes sense to me. 
 

so my conclusion is stock config is all toe in, left wheel points inwards more than the right but both are pointing inside. 

the rear axel was not adjusted as i mentioned in OP because of excessive wear on the rear tyres. 

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

P&S automotive or BM workshop Grey Lynn are also good places to go

[Olaf 3317]

17 hours ago, Herbmiester said:

Sorry had it in my mind it was an E46. Strange however that they refused to doe the rear.

 

as Tom Jones sang, "it's not unusual...".  Years ago I had Tony's Tyre Service make all sorts of excuses as to why they could not produce an alignment printout for a re-alignment... then told me that rear axle (non-BMW) was not adjustable.  I replied yes it was, it had been done many times, and I'd left the factory alignment procedure and specs in the glovebox for them, if only they'd bothered to read them!  Nek minnit they were under the rear of the car squinting and arguing amongst themselves ?
I suggested they keep the bill (eg give me a refund) and I'd find a shop that could actually do an alignment, and we settled on that.

A lot of places don't do the rear as a matter of course, sadly.  Not to mention the latest kit has a screen with pictures showing where, how, and towque specs for the specific car to the operator during the procedure.  No excuses.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Olaf
pictures

[Herbmiester 923]

5 hours ago, qube said:

Ive also used autolign numerous times since back in 2008 and know they are good. but that is not my question or concern.
 

I was just trying to understand the numbers on the alignment sheet so it makes sense to me. 
 

so my conclusion is stock config is all toe in, left wheel points inwards more than the right but both are pointing inside. 

the rear axel was not adjusted as i mentioned in OP because of excessive wear on the rear tyres. 

My understanding is that IRS Cars have both rear wheels with some toe in from the factory as this promotes straight line stability, I believe this depends on how much geometry change there is as the suspension moves through its travel.  Solid axle cars obviously have the rear axle to keep the wheels neutral but on occasion the axle location needs to corrected so both rear wheels pointing straight.  Front wheels usually have some toe in as well, again this promotes straight line stability at the cost of directional change speed/feel. Some track cars will run no toe in and some even run a very small amount of toe out to make them super responsive to direction changes at the expense of stability. So as far as toe angle goes the rear is more important (Toe in) for stability with an IRS car. the fronts will generally have some toe in again for stability but you can go neutral or less toe in for improved steering. BTW toe in is a contributor to tire wear in some cases it can be as bad for wear as excess Camber. 

[qube 3570]

got new tyres fitted and aligned. everything is now within spec but my suspicion is that the front tie rods need replacing.

hello again FCP..

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

21 minutes ago, qube said:

got new tyres fitted and aligned. everything is now within spec but my suspicion is that the front tie rods need replacing.

hello again FCP..

Have you checked them for play or damage ?

[qube 3570]

havent had a chance to jack it up and have a look but will do that this weekend hopefully.

 

[zero 1162]

12 hours ago, qube said:

the rear axel was not adjusted as i mentioned in OP because of excessive wear on the rear tyres. 

Worn tyres don't stop an alignment being done.

It sounds like they were giving you excuses.

I would be getting it aligned by a proper place as you don't want your new tyres to get excessive wear because of the toe being out. 

[Gaz 1060]

Alot places prefer to have new tyres on rather than worn out. Can't is probably the wrong word but better to have new tyres on when setting up the alignment 

[qube 3570]

Yep so new alignment was done (front and rear) after tyres were fitted. All good now 

[Jacko 2154]

13 hours ago, BreakMyWindow said:

P&S automotive or BM workshop Grey Lynn are also good places to go

Sounds like youve got it sorted, but Ill second P&S automotive, they did a slick job on the 130 and actually gave a sh*t about the resulting numbers (also plenty of toys to look at while you wait). First place I went to, after explaining E92 M3 alignment on a 130 is what I want, couldn't understand why the geometry they got wouldnt hit 130 numbers (and even then were way of being symmetrical!)

Edited May 20, 2020 by Jacko

[qube 3570]

Here is the new alignment sheet

[M3AN 4016]

That's a fine alignment. 

[qube 3570]

Car still drifting left so went in for another alignment.

Have driven 400kms since it rolled off the machine a week ago but problem persists.

New alignment sheet attached - note the difference between previous actual and new previous measurements..

I might start throwing new suspension parts at it because I want to do them anyway but this is bloody annoying. I dont want uneven wear on my brand new tyres either..