Govt Breathes New Life Into "Clean Car" Legislation

[Driftit 2093]

Was it on here? or somewhere else I read that a group monitoring the price of 2nd hand EV's is already seeing an increase.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Price of 2nd hand everything is heading upwards to various degrees currently, for a variety of reasons. Noticeable jump in new EVs as well, supply outstripping demand already, now even more so with the rebate scheme.

The MoT has also just announced a further extension to the RUC excemption for EVs (but HFCV) for another couple of years - that will annoy the ute driving farmers even more.

[Michael. 2313]

1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

that will annoy the ute driving farmers even more.

Ah god bless those ute driving people that get up at 4am to milk the cows, plow fields and send animals off to head to our dinner plates. Unsung heroes really, tough job, well it's not a job really - a way of life 

 

[GorGasm 563]

MG ZS EV is where it's at.  $40k for a brand new small EV SUV.  It's seriously tempting, a little more range would be nice so I could get to and from Auckland on 1 charge.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by GorGasm

[Driftit 2093]

19 hours ago, GorGasm said:

MG ZS EV is where it's at.  $40k for a brand new small EV SUV.  It's seriously tempting, a little more range would be nice so I could get to and from Auckland on 1 charge.

 

You don;t need extra range.  After the first drive you are just going to leave it where it runs out of juice anyway.

The CCP thanks you for your support.  An article will be written about how you think your MG is far superior to your Maserati and BMW.

[Allanw 1072]

A new MG?... the "reputation" of a British car and the build quality of a Chinese one...

Better than the other way around, actually 🤣

[GorGasm 563]

Seriously though, if you aren't an enthusiast driver, or it's a daily driver then it's a pretty appealing option.

Going to see a lot more Chinese made vehicles on the road in future me thinks.

Already lots of Havals kicking around.

 

[Driftit 2093]

Appealing to those who don't care about what the CCP are doing around the world.  Which to be fair is most.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Some interesting exerpts from a column by David Vinsen, the CEO of the VIA (Vehicle Importers Association) for NZ in the industry magazine Autotalk. Especially the comments around the current legislation from governments not really producing results:

Full article can be found here:  https://autotalk.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/autotalk_july2021-1.pdf

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2021 at 3:26 PM, Driftit said:

Was it on here? or somewhere else I read that a group monitoring the price of 2nd hand EV's is already seeing an increase.

From the same industry information, another article again on EVs, this time the auction prices in Japan, under the heading "Clean Car Mayhem on Prices" by Graeme MacDonald:

[gjm 3258]

Any fundamental change in embedded culture will cause waves. It'll upset the economic balance of those wo enjoy the culture, and repercussions will spread into areas where there'd typically be less interest.

The NZ government is just along for the ride, and hopefully making the best of a situation they have no control over. The US government or the EU might hold some sway, but frankly the combined might of the fossil fuel companies (let's not kid ourselves - they'll own patents on most alternatives) and the motor manufacturers, especially in China, will decide what the future will bring. There'll be lip service to existing situations, but if it doesn't fit the roadmap, there's little chance of the course being changed.

[Michael. 2313]

7 hours ago, Driftit said:

Appealing to those who don't care about what the CCP are doing around the world.  Which to be fair is most.

Hypocritically, the same buyers of such cars will probably go out of their way to buy ethically traded African coffee and coco products 

[KwS 2429]

On 7/5/2021 at 2:30 PM, Driftit said:

Hmm I wonder if you can fudge the battery life details via programming.

Doesnt even need to be programming, https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/300143635/juicing-fake-battery-life-catching-out-unsuspecting-electric-car-buyers

More dodgy sh*t like that will come out of the woodwork. Dealers will do anything for a buck.

[Driftit 2093]

 

9 hours ago, KwS said:

Doesnt even need to be programming, https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/300143635/juicing-fake-battery-life-catching-out-unsuspecting-electric-car-buyers

More dodgy sh*t like that will come out of the woodwork. Dealers will do anything for a buck.

Yeah they are going to urgently need to change the liability laws to cover this sort of thing.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Most electric cars, either BEV or PHEV have an on-board charging log (like the fuel economy history for a petrol / diesel) so you can easily check for abnormal charging patterns, ie Juicing to get the SoH up.

It is, as always, the unsuspecting customer that could be sucked in. Which now EVs are going more into mainstream buyers, is a worry.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Some "interesting" additions into the legislation when it was introduced into Parliament last week, exerpt of the Industry response below:

The car industry is claiming a new addition to upcoming Clean Car regulations allowing officials to set a proportion of an importers’ vehicles that must be zero-emission is an ‘ICE ban by stealth’.

The Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill was introduced by transport minister Michael Wood, who has insisted multiple times that it will be enacted this year.

Industry groups have been digesting the document, with their first analysis coming to light now.

A major concern highlighted to AutoTalk by both the Motor Industry Association (MIA) and Motor Trade Association is under the Clean Car Standard of the changes, regulators may set a minimum proportion of an importers vehicles that must be zero carbon emissions.

Both groups note this requirement has not previously been consulted on.

“The ability to set, by regulation, a minimum level of BEVs is an ICE ban by stealth,” MIA chief executive David Crawford says. “This is a new requirement not previously consulted on and is something the MIA totally opposes at this point in time.

“In our view the Government should not make this decision until the discount and standard have been in place for at least seven to 10 years so they can properly assess with the reduction on CO2 emissions is tracking as desired and also that there are viable low emissions vehicles available in mass.”

MTA advocacy and strategy manager Greig Epps calls this their ‘stand out concern’.

“The proposed regulations would impose a further penalty or fine on an importer who could not meet this target,” Epps explains. “This sort of mechanism was never discussed in any of the consultation papers and it is a double blow to those importers who deal primarily in ICE vehicles.

“This mechanism could be used to introduce an ICE ban without any further consultation with the industry or the public. If the proportion was set high enough, it would make it impossible for an importer to bring in a mix of vehicles.

This has been widely relayed in various industry and mainstream publications, in this instance the full article can be found on Evs and Beyond here.. https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/clean-car-bill-ice-ban-by-stealth/

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Latest Government press release after the legislation passed it's first reading..

Clean Vehicles Bill passes first checkpoint

The Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill will help New Zealand drive down transport emissions by cleaning up the light vehicle fleet, Transport Minister Michael Wood says.

The Bill passed its first reading today and will establish the legislative framework for key parts of the Government’s Clean Car Package, including the Clean Car Import Standard and Clean Car Discount.

“The Clean Vehicles Bill passing its first reading means we’re another step closer to meeting our climate goals and fulfilling our manifesto commitment to implement the Clean Car Import Standard,” Michael Wood said.

“Countries and car manufacturers around the world are shifting to cleaner cars, so we have to move quickly to stop us becoming a dumping ground for the world’s dirtiest vehicles.

“The Bill will help prevent millions of tonnes of emissions from our light vehicle fleet, give Kiwis access to more cars that are cheaper to run, and make it cheaper for families to buy electric and low emission cars. It also helps bring us into line with most other countries in the OECD who already have import emission standards.                                                                           

“Due to the disruption caused by the current Delta outbreak, the expanded Clean Car Discount rebates and fees will begin from April 1 2022. This will help give the industry more time to gear up and the current rebates on electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles will continue until March 31 2022.

“The funding allocated in Budget 2021 will be more than enough to continue to cover the Discount until the full regime comes into force. Clean Car Import Standard reporting will also begin later in 2022 and the full scheme will still come into force 1 January 2023,” Michael Wood said.

Minister of Climate Change James Shaw said this legislation will help us move more meaningfully towards cleaning up our light vehicle fleet, which is a crucial part of our plan to decarbonise the transport system, more of which will be outlined in the Emissions Reduction Plan.

“It is a key step on the path to a low carbon Aotearoa in which people have clean, affordable and climate-friendly ways of getting around,” James Shaw said.

Select Committee will report back early February 2022 and then the remaining stages of the Bill will be gone through that month.

[Michael. 2313]

41 minutes ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

cheaper to run, and make it cheaper for families to buy electric and low emission cars

I wonder what they mean by this

Cheaper to run on electricity when the subsidies expire, electric RUCs are added and electricity prices rise? Will be curious to see what the costs end up being. 

Cheaper to buy electric cars when semi affordable used ones have 50-60% battery health and new ones are way more than most low to average income owners would want to spend verses a 5-10k used Japanese import (eg Corolla) 

A lot of things to play out, I'll watch with interest. 

[dirtydoogle 383]

6 minutes ago, Michael. said:

I wonder what they mean by this

Cheaper to run on electricity when the subsidies expire, electric RUCs are added and electricity prices rise? Will be curious to see what the costs end up being. 

Cheaper to buy electric cars when semi affordable used ones have 50-60% battery health and new ones are way more than most low to average income owners would want to spend verses a 5-10k used Japanese import (eg Corolla) 

A lot of things to play out, I'll watch with interest. 

I don't believe there is a particularly large amount of thinking going on by the people involved. 

 

Well, certainly not aimed at the consumer. But no doubt James Shaw will make a buck somehow, the limp wristed womble. 

[Michael. 2313]

If anything I could almost see more people just ending up holding onto their old cars, factoring in fuel vs service costs.

$100-$150 on fuel a week verses an outlay of 5 figures for a relatively expensive electric car that you wont see benefits from for years (based on current fuel savings) is not going to appeal to a lot of people, let alone be possible for them even if in the long run they might save a few thousand a year on running costs, but it's a long game. 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2963]

Don’t forget the feel good factor of saving the planet.

Plus I would expect the fuel costs to be driven up by taxes and penalties to further dissuade ICE vehicles from being used.

[nick496 269]

I've recently purchased a second hand leaf, mostly because the cost of it was so low (4 figures), and it meets 90% of my driving requirements. (E30 suits the longer distances funnily enough)
But they do seem to have gone up in price with that clean car discount, which is achieving it's true goal of driving more initial interest in purchasing a new EV.
Which is ok as a short term strategy, but debatable long term, as I feel that simply continuing to hike fuel prices would be the easy way to force people into more efficient vehicles, or public transport.

In terms of running costs, there's no question that EVs are currently super cheap to run.
However it really depends on what the government decide to do once the RUC exemption expires in 2024, and if they'll charge them at the standard RUC rate, or come up with another scheme.

After that I'd guess that having a Hybrid would probably still be the vehicle of choice as a single vehicle.
But I imagine there will continue to be a large number of enthusiast who will hold onto their vehicle(s) of choice

I put together a wee calculator based off some claimed economy figures from fuelly to play around with to justify the purchase of a third car.

[aja540i 1906]

We have been a dumping ground for dirty end of life vehicles for decades, now we are becoming a dumping ground for end of life EVs, it represents an amazing opportunity to develop world leading systems for recycling these vehicles, but in typical fashion the government will be too short sighted to take that opportunity and our kids and grandkids will end up paying to clean up the mess. I hope I am wrong. And yes I am part of that end of life EV owners club, but I intend to repurpose the battery from mine for solar storage when it is due for replacement.

[Olaf 3341]

8 hours ago, aja540i said:

We have been a dumping ground for dirty end of life vehicles for decades, now we are becoming a dumping ground for end of life EVs, it represents an amazing opportunity to develop world leading systems for recycling these vehicles, but in typical fashion the government will be too short sighted to take that opportunity and our kids and grandkids will end up paying to clean up the mess. I hope I am wrong. And yes I am part of that end of life EV owners club, but I intend to repurpose the battery from mine for solar storage when it is due for replacement.

The question on everyone's lips is will a reasonably-priced replacement battery be available when the time comes. One hopes a suitable modular solution is available to provide for the varied custom solutions each manufacturer has engineered for their cars to date.  Eg if Toyota, Nissan, BMW et al all used standard cells (as with the ubiquitous automotive battery in it's various standard form factors) it may become affordable.

Not only are we a dumping ground, but we're a clearing house as we export much end of life waste to third world countries rather than dealing with it here. And then there's tyres.

[Olaf 3341]

On 9/20/2021 at 10:37 AM, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Some "interesting" additions into the legislation when it was introduced into Parliament last week, exerpt of the Industry response below:

The car industry is claiming a new addition to upcoming Clean Car regulations allowing officials to set a proportion of an importers’ vehicles that must be zero-emission is an ‘ICE ban by stealth’.

The Land Transport (Clean Vehicles) Amendment Bill was introduced by transport minister Michael Wood, who has insisted multiple times that it will be enacted this year.

Industry groups have been digesting the document, with their first analysis coming to light now.

A major concern highlighted to AutoTalk by both the Motor Industry Association (MIA) and Motor Trade Association is under the Clean Car Standard of the changes, regulators may set a minimum proportion of an importers vehicles that must be zero carbon emissions.

 

Both groups note this requirement has not previously been consulted on.

“The ability to set, by regulation, a minimum level of BEVs is an ICE ban by stealth,” MIA chief executive David Crawford says. “This is a new requirement not previously consulted on and is something the MIA totally opposes at this point in time.

“In our view the Government should not make this decision until the discount and standard have been in place for at least seven to 10 years so they can properly assess with the reduction on CO2 emissions is tracking as desired and also that there are viable low emissions vehicles available in mass.”

MTA advocacy and strategy manager Greig Epps calls this their ‘stand out concern’.

“The proposed regulations would impose a further penalty or fine on an importer who could not meet this target,” Epps explains. “This sort of mechanism was never discussed in any of the consultation papers and it is a double blow to those importers who deal primarily in ICE vehicles.

“This mechanism could be used to introduce an ICE ban without any further consultation with the industry or the public. If the proportion was set high enough, it would make it impossible for an importer to bring in a mix of vehicles.

This has been widely relayed in various industry and mainstream publications, in this instance the full article can be found on Evs and Beyond here.. https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/clean-car-bill-ice-ban-by-stealth/

One hopes a new government will come in with fresh ideas and clean up this goverment's mess of clean car legislation so that it's workable, eliminates robin-hood tax transfers, and provides workable solutions and addresses current fleets with the introduction of emissions testing, to the benefit of everyday New Zealanders and the Car Industry alike.

James Off-Shaw may bring back new ideas from Glasgow, watch this (MIQ) space?