jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 10, 2022 CNG was introduced as an alternative fuel, the government jumped on it enthusiastically to the extent that they offered a substantial subsidy to anyone prepared to convert their car (have a familiar ring ?). It produced less power than gasoline and had a short range between fill-ups. None the less gas stations with access to the natural gas distribution network were coerced into installing special high pressure compressors and banks of storage cylinders. It was a classic example of a knee jerk reaction to the fuel crisis at that time, and seen as a way to reduce our dependence on overseas fuel supplies. There was no consideration given to the fact that much of the country did not have access to natural gas, the large CNG tank substantially reduced boot space, and no-one jumped at the thrill of lower performance and difficult starting on cold mornings. One of the reasons that CNG fell out of favor and eventually disappeared was the mandated requirement for the cylinders to be pressure tested by an approved testing agent which involved taking the cylinder out of the car... at a cost. Most opted to simply removed the CNG conversion. Jumping on the hydrogen bandwagon and forcing people into electric cars is another knee jerk reaction to a problem, chosen because big polluters are not so easy to push around. Go for the short-term solution, sell the benefits and ignore the downside... that's how politics work Now, where did I put that gasifier ??? Cheers... 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Allanw 1071 Report post Posted February 11, 2022 I'm supposed to be listing this on TradeMe this weekend... if you want to get started on a build! It's not long clicked past 99,999 miles, so at a little under 1800 kms per year, I bet it's carbon footprint is pretty good... 'specially since it only got built once and there is a distinct lack of plastic crap. Nobody could be bothered with the effort of driving, so if you wanted to use the car, it was only for a trip that was worthwhile! Whereas an electric car is so good for the environment, you should drive it everywhere and never walk/run/ride etc! 1 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 11, 2022 (edited) Haven't got one of these tucked away by any chance ? Would be the perfect answer for the alternative fuels brigade... could probably run one of dried cow pancakes and create a side business for the dairy farmers Cheers... PS: Tailpipe emissions nothing but water.... where have I heard that before ? Edited February 11, 2022 by jon dee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjm 3258 Report post Posted February 12, 2022 An update to the original post. BMW and Bosch, leading the FlatHyStor group, is working on a flat hydrogen tank, making it less bulky than current storage solutions, which will help with development of more comfortable and usable vehicles. EVs now often have the batteries forming part of the floor of the vehicle, instead of a more blocky installation, and the plan is for the hydrogen tank to occupy a similar space and to fit in the car underbody, between the axles. BMW presented the iX5 Hydrogen in mid-2021, with market launch due later this year. This has two tanks - one where the transmission tunnel would usually be, and one under the rear seats This is obviously a development of the existing X5 platform, rejigged to suit a hydrogen fuel cell, and is not designed specifically around the hydrogen fuel cell and storage potential. On the other side of the world Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are heavily involved in developing cars using hydrogen-powered fuel cells. Hyundai are also working on other vehicles including buses and lorries/trucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lord_jagganath 421 Report post Posted February 13, 2022 if they could create tanks to modify to fit existing cars and basically be drop in conversions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 13, 2022 Quote Storage of hydrogen as a gas typically requires high-pressure tanks (350–700 bar [5,000–10,000 psi] tank pressure). Quote For welding, oxygen cylinders are measured in cubic feet and come in 3 sizes (80, 122 and 244). The cylinders are pressurized to 2,220 psi (pounds per square inch). Quote Hoop stress is the stress that occurs long the pipe's circumference when pressure is applied. Hoop stress acts perpendicular to the axial direction. Hoop stresses are tensile and generated to resist the bursting effect that results from the application of pressure. Anyone who has had to shift oxygen bottles in an engineering shop will know that they are seriously heavy... and they only have a rated pressure of about half of that required for storing hydrogen. Likewise high pressure storage vessels are always cylindrical or spherical to allow them to accommodate hoop stress... so forget large flat tanks for high pressure hydrogen storage. The best that I can envisage is multiple small cylinders manifolded together and is not as efficient use of space as a single large tank for an equivalent storage capacity. Not saying that the worlds greatest engineering brains can't come up with a workable storage system for hydrogen use in cars, but it won't be easy and it won't be cheap Cheers.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjm 3258 Report post Posted February 13, 2022 7 hours ago, jon dee said: Not saying that the worlds greatest engineering brains can't come up with a workable storage system for hydrogen use in cars, but it won't be easy and it won't be cheap That's perhaps why the collaboration of a number of engineering experts have taken as long as they have to develop a solution? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 13, 2022 (edited) Cars are the easy target for government legislators. As pointed out above, cars contribute a minor proportion of CO2 emissions but car manufacturers are constantly having to meet tighter and tighter emission regulations. Governments like this approach as it does not cost them anything. The car manufacturers bear the development costs and the car buying public pick up the cost of incorporating the developments into their vehicles. Alternate energy sources are always welcomed with open arms and eagerly endorsed as "the way of the future", until the unforeseen downsides are uncovered. Nuclear power was once going to displace fossil fuels. Hydo dams periodically fail and have been responsible for disastrous effects on downstream agricultural economies. Oil tankers have accidents. Pipelines and storage facilities are primary targets for terrorist and military activity. Windfarms disfigure our landscapes and so on. Over the last 100 years hydrogen has been visited many times as an alternative fuel and discarded due to the difficulties it presents. In a few more years due to economies of scale and design improvements, electric cars will start to displace gasoline powered cars as a natural transport evolution. Rising gasoline prices will help speed the process !! So do we REALLY NEED hydrogen fueled cars ?? By the way... how is the government going to tax electric cars when the number of gasoline powered cars drops ? They are not going to like losing the $1.60/litre that pours millions into their coffers every week. Road User Tax anyone ?? Cheers... PS: This wouldn't fit in the Quick Rant thread... any decent rant needs at least a few paragraphs Edited February 13, 2022 by jon dee Typo... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E30 325i Rag-Top 2956 Report post Posted February 13, 2022 Yes cars / transport is the easy target, it’s always easy to go for the soft option even if it doesn’t give the best improvements. The availability of supposed better options - public transport, e-bikes, electric vehicles, etc make it even easier to be seen to be doing something about the problem. In reality, unless there is a huge shift in battery capacity and charging performance, then electric is only a stop-gap with something like hydrogen fuel cell the longer term solution. @jon dee in case you missed it, RUC exemption for electrics runs out next year so that’s when the government starts clawing back the lost taxes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 14, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said: ... RUC exemption for electrics runs out next year so that’s when the government starts clawing back the lost taxes. Hahahahah... I have no interest in electric cars nor do I wish to ever own one. So I don't keep up with the politics and incentives that are being offered to entice buyers. In my book battery power is great for delivery vehicles, the type of thing that can be used in city malls, small fork lifts and cars like taxis that are predominantly used within city limits. The most disturbing thing about the current trend in electric cars is the push towards autonomous driving. This is a classic case of introducing unwanted/unneeded technology by stealth. Microsoft showed the way, so now autonomous driving is being bundled with electric cars. FFS, if people don't want to drive the car themselves, and want to sit a metre off the bumper of the car in front, they should be catching the bus or a train !!!! Cheers... Edited February 14, 2022 by jon dee Typo... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polley 916 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 Opps, cargo ship on fire full of cars. Electric car batterys on fire. Please discuss. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KwS 2425 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 4 hours ago, polley said: Please discuss. Why? No proof yet of how the fire started, and no confirmation it was an EV battery, no point speculating. Its no different to any of the other times a car transport has caught fire. Could've been just as likely one of the euro ICE cars on there had an electrical failure and caught fire. All you guys are so eager to see any progress towards a new future fail. 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polley 916 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 34 minutes ago, KwS said: Why? No proof yet of how the fire started, and no confirmation it was an EV battery, no point speculating. Its no different to any of the other times a car transport has caught fire. Could've been just as likely one of the euro ICE cars on there had an electrical failure and caught fire. All you guys are so eager to see any progress towards a new future fail. Boring as usual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olaf 3317 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 Irrespective of how it started, there are lithium-powered electric &/or hybrid cars on fire on the Felicity Ace. That's a bloody environmental disaster right there. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-22/porsche-car-carrier-fire-drags-on-days-after-crew-abandoned-ship Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aja540i 1906 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 Cough cough... oil platform fire anyone? 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polley 916 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, aja540i said: Cough cough... oil platform fire anyone? f**k yea, those vessels and water cannons are bad ass. Unfortunately it is a lot harder to extinguish lithium. Edited February 23, 2022 by polley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted February 23, 2022 (edited) Be worth trying water cannons to extinguish a parliamentary protest though... I'd pay to view Cheers... Edited February 23, 2022 by jon dee Becoz change... 4 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tawa 150 Report post Posted February 24, 2022 Like others, I see the main environmental challenge to Hydrogen in its production, not its distribution and consumption, but the private car market is massive so I'm sure it's prudent for technology to develop on the other aspects of the problem. Also worth noting, just because it is Hydrogen, and electric motors, doesn't mean it's all about the environment. Hydrogen power density is huge, as are electric drivetrains, batteries let down the system. 100kg gets you 250kW out of the fuel cell, add another 150kg of motors and drives gets you a good megawatt of power to the road, another 100 for supercaps and battery buffer to hit the motor peak power, 50kg for a hydrogen storage tank and you probably got 1000km of range. 1:1:1 kw to kg to km-range? Pretty sure there's a market for that despite hydrogen being the fuel, hell, if you had to juice dolphins for the tank I'd expect there'd still be a market... 19 hours ago, Olaf said: Irrespective of how it started, there are lithium-powered electric &/or hybrid cars on fire on the Felicity Ace. That's a bloody environmental disaster right there. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-22/porsche-car-carrier-fire-drags-on-days-after-crew-abandoned-ship Is it any more of a disaster than other ship fires? I get that lithium fires are pretty hard to put out, but do they release more harmful gases etc than anything else? 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
polley 916 Report post Posted March 1, 2022 On 2/23/2022 at 6:26 PM, KwS said: Why? No proof yet of how the fire started, and no confirmation it was an EV battery, no point speculating. Its no different to any of the other times a car transport has caught fire. Could've been just as likely one of the euro ICE cars on there had an electrical failure and caught fire. All you guys are so eager to see any progress towards a new future fail. And now we will probably never know the true cause, it has just sunk in 3000m of water. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted March 2, 2022 57 minutes ago, polley said: And now we will probably never know the true cause, it has just sunk in 3000m of water. Probably the best outcome for VAG. Now there will not be hundreds of salvaged Porches polluting the new Porche market Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E30 325i Rag-Top 2956 Report post Posted March 2, 2022 There was never going to be anything salvaged from that vessel. Plus Porsche, BMW and the like take any mass-damaged vehicles back to their recycling facility and strip them down to raw materials for exactly that reason. Surprisingly car companies aren’t always as stupid as they may sometimes seem. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jon dee 500 Report post Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said: There was never going to be anything salvaged from that vessel. As I understand it (and I am open to correction) in the event of a successful salvage, ownership of the cars on the vessel would pass to the salvor and/or insurance companies involved. Had the vessel been towed to a safe harbour and if there were cars that had not been directly involved in the fire, they could have been sold. Of course we shall never know what it looked like on the vehicle decks... unless someone releases pix or video at some later date. Should be some lessons to be learned seeing as this is the Felicity Ace fire comes 3 years after the Sincerity Ace fire. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
E30 325i Rag-Top 2956 Report post Posted March 2, 2022 The rights of salvage part is correct, what I was meaning was that there would not be anything worth salvaging. From the photos you could see large areas of the ships sides that had melted from the intensity of the fire, so you can imagine what the inside looked like. 1,000s of cars crammed together in open decks (not many vehicle carriers have fire control walls I believe) just becomes fuel for the fire with all the plastics, oil, fuel, Lithium-Ion batteries, etc in a confined space. With the decks being open even if a car was stored well away from the fire it would still have been subjected to a lot of heat and smoke, then finally water damage on top of that. Again the photos showed how extensive the damage was - from bow to stern and top to bottom. Salvage laws change from country to country, I think in some of them the original owner has the right to buy back the items. Manufacturers work with insurers as well to repatriate vehicles, even down to single crashed vehicles if the car is rare / valuable enough and deemed to be too risky to repair. I’m sure the doom merchants will blame it on EVs, but regardless the fault there clearly needs to be changes to the ship designs and fire suppression systems. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Olaf 3317 Report post Posted March 4, 2022 On 2/24/2022 at 6:37 PM, tawa said: Is it any more of a disaster than other ship fires? I get that lithium fires are pretty hard to put out, but do they release more harmful gases etc than anything else? Dunno about the gasses, good question though. I've seen ship's crews doing fire training, and spoken with them about it. Bringing the fire under control and extinguishing it as fast as is humanly possible is their mission, fire at sea leading to loss of cargo and vessel - and life aboard - is their greatest threat (The Rena excepted). A fire that you can't extinguish must increase risk in factors of ten, surely. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjm 3258 Report post Posted March 28, 2022 Not a BMW, but does show the potential versatility in use for hydrogen fuel sources. https://www.visordown.com/news/new-bikes/bold-hydrogen-powered-segway-apex-h2-not-only-here-its-bargain-too Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
