Govt Breathes New Life Into "Clean Car" Legislation

[Palazzo 477]

Actually the Toyota website says 2025, not 12-24 months for BEV and hopefully a hybrid ute, not an EV ute as stated, by end of next year from the NZ CEO. 

[leichtbau 525]

Toyota worldwide press release; April 19, 2021

Various news articles but pertinent points below

Quote

Out of the 15 upcoming electric models, Toyota made sure to mention plans to “bring electrification to the pickup truck lineup in the near future, including hybrid and BEV powertrains.”

Toyota has previously mentioned that the next-generation Hilux would share a platform with the new Tundra and Tacoma, so we can imagine that the electrification tech would carry over from those American models.

We'd be surprised to see an electric Hilux unveiled alongside its American brethren, but with emissions restrictions tightening internationally, it's a matter of time before it happens. 

Toyota New Zealand CEO Neeraj Lala revealed that a hybrid Hilux was expected to be part of the move that sees every Toyota model get some form of electrification.

“We expect this trend to continue and even expand into commercials. We hope to have Hilux hybrid enter the market before the end of next year,” Lala said.

Compare with:

Monday The AM Show:

Quote

The second point I'd make is that within the next - we're hoping the next 12 to 24 months - the likes of Toyota are talking about bringing in EV utes. My hope is then people might delay their purchase in order to start building the market.

and then Toyota have to say stuff like:

Quote

In confirming an electric version of its famous Hilux won't be brought into New Zealand in the next 24 months, Toyota said it's "irresponsible" to suggest customers should immediately stop buying non-electric vehicles.

"The range and volumes of EV's needed to meet demand are simply not available, and many customers still need a vehicle to transport their family or operate their business," said Toyota New Zealand chief executive Neeraj Lala.

"Battery electric technology is coming but is not quite there yet."

 

But I'm not better than this.

[coop 261]

48 minutes ago, gjm said:

This sh*t really pisses me off.

Manufacturer issues press release.

Someone recites it.

That someone *must* be lying, right?
Not the manufacturer, not the original source. Yes - I know it was the head of Toyota NZ who denied it - perhaps he was wrong?
IT WAS ON THE ORIGINAL TOYOTA WEBSITE.
IT HAS BEEN RECITED BY OTHER NEWS OUTLETS BASED ON SUBSEQUENT DISCUSSION WITH THE MANUFACTURER.

Come on. Get a f'ing grip. You're better than this.

I'm not saying it'll happen, only that anyone claiming it is a piece made up by the PM is short on so readily available facts.

 

Well, she hasn't recited it. There is a difference between an EV (Ardern's claim) and a mild hybrid (Toyota's planned Hilux). The Hilux wont be eligible for a subsidy, and will retain its original ORC, providing it comes to market. 

She has at best, stretched the truth regarding Toyotas press release in an attempt to smooth the pushback from the public over this tax grab/subsidy. If not she has misrepresented info from Toyota in which case someone in that position shouldn't be spreading 'misinformation' and further confusing the public (transparency and all that). 

The fact that Toyota CEO publicly refuted her claim should be enough to put to rest, but it seems her faithfuls are always there to go into bat for her. 

 

But lets be honest, she has quite the record of lying so on the back of no new taxes (apart from the 39% top tax rate) promise in the 2020 election campaign, whats another lie or broken promise to add to the telly. 

 

 

 

 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

Good to see that one of the industry bodies has taken a broader look at the whole emissions issue, and not just focussed on the EV solution like the government has: 

MTA SUGGESTS EMISSIONS TESTING, SCRAPPAGE SCHEME, HOLISTIC VIEW

Whilst the incentives for EVs are a positive move, there are other areas that could give significant improvements. The emissions testing would be a great step forwards, especially as the age of the vehicle fleet in NZ is old by comparision to most developed countries, and many people like to modify their vehicles. There is little or no positive result to be had spending tax payer money getting a relatively small number of new vehicles into NZ as electric models if there are millions of older vehicles that are pumping out massive amounts of Co2, NOx, smoke, etc...

 

[Driftit 2078]

Scrappage Scheme.  Did not go so well in the US.

 

[Olaf 3317]

On 6/6/2021 at 11:41 AM, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

You’re giving the MPs too much credit, it’s the figures in the background that tell them what to say and think. Not sure what they are called in NZ, in the UK they are “civil servants”.

 

there are buildings full of experts in their fields... policymakers, analysts, advisors, all doing the right thing.  Their current masters are ignoring them.  Evidenced by the lack of policy underpinning the majority of announcements made by this gubbermint.  

There's an important distinction between the Civil Service and the Politicians.  

[Olaf 3317]

On 6/15/2021 at 11:46 AM, gjm said:

Based on news from shows and Toyota themselves, I suggest name-calling over a comment re Toyota EV utes is - at best - unfair.

https://www.driven.co.nz/news/it-s-happening-toyota-is-serious-about-building-an-electric-ute/

and

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/toyota/35083987.html

Worth clarifying what Jacinda Ardern said: "The second point I'd make is that within the next - we're hoping the next 12 to 24 months - the likes of Toyota are talking about bringing in EV utes."
Given previous announcements - by Toyota - was it Toyota who said they weren't doing this, or was it reported that Toyota said they weren't doing this?

 

On 6/15/2021 at 8:21 PM, gjm said:

This sh*t really pisses me off.

Manufacturer issues press release.

Someone recites it.

That someone *must* be lying, right?
Not the manufacturer, not the original source. Yes - I know it was the head of Toyota NZ who denied it - perhaps he was wrong?
IT WAS ON THE ORIGINAL TOYOTA WEBSITE.
IT HAS BEEN RECITED BY OTHER NEWS OUTLETS BASED ON SUBSEQUENT DISCUSSION WITH THE MANUFACTURER.

Come on. Get a f'ing grip. You're better than this.

I'm not saying it'll happen, only that anyone claiming it is a piece made up by the PM is short on so readily available facts.

Graham, I'm confused.  The Toyota website link that you furnished did not contain any reference to delivering or launching an EV Ute in NZ in - well, any timeframe, actually.  

The PM did suggest that Toyota were looking at bringing in EV Utes.  "The second point I'd make is that within the next - we're hoping the next 12 to 24 months - the likes of Toyota are talking about bringing in EV utes."  As she was talking about New Zealand, we use "bringing in" as a synonym for importation and distribution here in the Shaky Isles.

Of course Toyota's GM in NZ practiced damage control and pointed out the gap between fantasy and reality. To do anything less - in the face of no local or global statement of intent to do what the PM had indicated was already in motion, would set Toyota's local presence up for failure.

I can avoid the use of expletives here.  I have to ask what is the source of the filler you're using to bridge the gaps in the narrative?  I'd really like to know, as there must be something I'm missing.  I hope you can help.

[_ethrty-Andy_ 2132]

the whole thing is stupid from top to toe. 

under the emmissions trading scheme, New Zealands emissions are capped already, and you already pay your contirubution toward that at the pump.
Switching to EVs has the wider effect of freeing up emissions for other industries. there will be no overall decrease in emmissions.
The subsidy is supposed to lower emmissions. true for cars, but not overall.

[lord_jagganath 421]

:puts tin foil hat on: 

Dairy factories do need expansion, and the industry is loathe to invest in more efficient technologies, thanks to accountants holding the purse strings. 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

14 hours ago, Olaf said:

there are buildings full of experts in their fields... 

Is this the new Tui advert? 

[Michael. 2313]

On 7/1/2021 at 6:11 PM, Driftit said:

Scrappage Scheme.  Did not go so well in the US.

 

Hahah cash for clunkers, what a disaster. They had to put sodium silicate in the engine and blow them up so coolant, oil and other fluids leak out onto the ground and go into the soil or drain when the engines usually blew up, a lot of videos show this. 

Was a triumph for the environment. NOT

I recall around 750,000 cars were destroyed in this, a lot of good second hand cars too, no parts could be sold off them as well so it was a massive loss of the 2nd hand parts market. 

Ended up having people cash in and get a new big car, usually getting into debt in the process despite the scrap rebate. 

[Michael. 2313]

On 7/1/2021 at 3:15 PM, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

MTA SUGGESTS EMISSIONS TESTING, 

 

 

I've always wondered who pays for that then, a test would be expensive as hell. As would the equipment for that testing, training and other issues related to its implementation.

Then the is the issue of the remedy, telling a single mother with children that her 15 year old Toyota Camry is has slightly too high CO2 and NO emissions levels so can't be driven anymore unless it has a $1500 cat and $2000 PPF installed would be a disaster, especially if she can't afford to buy a new car with the govt approved emissions levels. 

If something like that went ahead it would financially ruin people so they can't even drive a car, probably the plan I imagine. They'd be told to ride a bike to pick up the kids from school and to go to work in the rain, or catch a crowded bus that takes them no where near their intended location. 

The other issue is peoples classic cars, you'd have to have a new exemption status created so old vehicles can continue to be used. 

Furthermore, I just saw this:

Dunedin protest becomes heated as teen blocks petrol cars - NZ Herald

haha, get ready for more of this, If viewed from facebook comments were some highly entertaining reading. 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by Michael.

[KwS 2425]

Emission testing is just going to punish the ones that already cant afford to replace their car. They arent going to fix it at great cost, or buy a replacement car, they are just going to send it as is. No reg, no wof, no worries.

Scrappage schemes in the UK were a disaster too. Airfields filled with perfectly good cars that were just crushed complete. Fairly late model stuff ended up there too. Such a waste and a false economy. 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

It would depend very much on how the emissions test is measured. Checking a car is performing as it should - original emissions levels plus a small margin is sensible, requiring a 30 year old classic to meet EU6d levels would not be.

[Driftit 2078]

It would mean the end to performance mods.

[Michael. 2313]

21 minutes ago, Driftit said:

It would mean the end to performance mods.

Just look what is happening in USA with the clean air act the EPA is going nuts on, fines for individuals doing mods and even shops selling ecus that could do away with the factory emissions systems, even race cars now have to meet the standard emissions levels if once a road going car with a VIN. The RPM act is trying to get traction to make race cars/off road use cars exempt from these crazy emissions standards. 

[Driftit 2078]

18 hours ago, Michael. said:

Just look what is happening in USA with the clean air act the EPA is going nuts on, fines for individuals doing mods and even shops selling ecus that could do away with the factory emissions systems, even race cars now have to meet the standard emissions levels if once a road going car with a VIN. The RPM act is trying to get traction to make race cars/off road use cars exempt from these crazy emissions standards. 

Yeah DC didn't have a WOF system.  Just an emissions check.  There were plenty of holes in it but it was very effective in keeping old cars that were not classed as a classic off the road.  See an old car in DC and it is no doubt from Maryland or at least registered there.

My E46 only passed because I had cleared all codes before I went in for my check.  The guy said I couldn't do that and needed at least 48hours worth of driving after a "Clear".  But then just passed me anyway for some reason.  Wasn't going to question him.

I wonder what it would do to a place like the Wairarapa.  I would say a good half of the vehicles are old utes/4wds that wouldn't have a sh*t show of passing any emissions test seen around the world.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

19 hours ago, Driftit said:

It would mean the end to performance mods.

There would certainly be another dimension added to the planning of modifying a car that's for sure, again it depends on how the test is applied. If you put an M54 into an E30 I would expect that it would give better emissions than the original M10 / M20 / M40 unit, so could be OK if measured against the original factory specs.

18 hours ago, Michael. said:

fines for individuals doing mods and even shops selling ecus that could do away with the factory emissions systems

It's exactly this that should be cut down on IMHO (for road cars, not race cars so I'm clear - race cars don't do enough miles to make any impact) the number of "cat removed exhausts", "EGR delete", "ECU mapped" cars that are "it's all good for a WoF bro they never notice" is bloody ridiculous. There is a reason the manufacturer spend many thousands of dollars to get the factory tune into your vehicles, and yes it is easy to get "more power" but at what costs?

15 minutes ago, Driftit said:

I wonder what it would do to a place like the Wairarapa.  I would say a good half of the vehicles are old utes/4wds that wouldn't have a sh*t show of passing any emissions test seen around the world.

All the more reason for it's introduction then, just because many of the cars, and especially light commercial van's and trucks, in NZ are poorly serviced and need maintence (as evidenced by the clouds of black smoke coming out the back) is not an excuse. Basic stuff like changing the oil, oil filter and air filter on a regular basis make a big difference, on diesels overhauling / replacing the injectors also makes a huge difference, but all too often the penny pinching approach of run it into the ground is allowed to prevail because it's not picked up on.

Yes, I apprecaite that all the cars in NZ probably make the tenths of nothing difference to the global picture, but there is no point trying to push people down the electric route to reduce emissions without also looking to get the worse offenders off the roads at the same time. It will affect some of the lower income road users, but also there are a lot that can afford to change that simply can't be bothered.

[Driftit 2078]

I just can't see this going anywhere.

Scaring people into shitty 2nd hand short life electric vehicles will only drive up the price of the already limited and poor quality imports.
I'm betting Japan can't wait to dump all the old crap on us.
I was interested in the new Honda E.  But pretty average range and they are $64k for an ex demo....

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/honda/other/listing/3079178330?bof=Didrf8jt

Hmm I wonder if you can fudge the battery life details via programming.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Driftit

[balancerider 758]

The 120aH non REX i3 is looking more and more appealing - pick up a second hand one ex-UK, 250ish real world km and pick up a healthy rebate...

[Michael. 2313]

3 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

 

It's exactly this that should be cut down on IMHO (for road cars, not race cars so I'm clear - race cars don't do enough miles to make any impact) the number of "cat removed exhausts", "EGR delete", "ECU mapped" cars that are "it's all good for a WoF bro they never notice" is bloody ridiculous. There is a reason the manufacturer spend many thousands of dollars to get the factory tune into your vehicles, and yes it is easy to get "more power" but at what costs?

 

What about my 540i E34, it's factory spec didn't come with catalytic converters when sold new in NZ in 1994?

I agree there needs to be more done about general vehicles with poor maintenace burning oil because the rings are shot and the car is running poorly. 

Another issue no one talks about is most modern cars running on 91 when they should run on 95 or 98 fuel, the amount of variable vale timing higher compression cars around ping and knocking accelerating from a stop is so common, that scaled out to an entire country would make for a lot of wasted fuel, poorer fuel economy and more emissions. 

2 hours ago, Driftit said:

I was interested in the new Honda E.  But pretty average range and they are $64k for an ex demo....

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/honda/other/listing/3079178330?bof=Didrf8jt

Hmm I wonder if you can fudge the battery life details via programming.

 

Good lord $64k ex demo for that, considering it has the features, quality and appeal of their Honda Jazz models at around 30k it seems like a stretch.

I wonder if the 64k includes a free battery replacement in 10 years or so? For that money you'd hope so haha.

I was curious about range on a 1.5L 2021 Jazz, they get 5.8L per 100km and have a 40L tank, so a theoretical max range of 690km vs a maximum of 220km for the 64k Honda E. Of course most people dont do 220km+ in one trip but some do so means that car isn't an option. 

 

 

 

[gjm 3258]

It's incredibly unlikely that any legislation will retrospectively require fitment of additional, non-standard equipment. It could require that any stock kit is fitted - EGRs, DPFs, cats, etc.

The majority of older cars on the road are just that - older cars. Not of any intrinsic, historic or interest value. Normal attrition will see them leave the roads in time.

Older vehicles may become subject to a different licensing, WoF (CoF), or similar requirement, but not one that will require significant change.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

3 hours ago, balancerider said:

The 120aH non REX i3 is looking more and more appealing - pick up a second hand one ex-UK, 250ish real world km and pick up a healthy rebate...

Get in quick... prices are already on the rise.

[gjm 3258]

2 hours ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Get in quick... prices are already on the rise.

Yup - looks like dealer asking prices are rising. Any benefit from the govt is likely to be swallowed by that.

 

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

I was referring to the ex-U.K. (and ex-Japan) pricing of used BEVs and PHEVs.

NZ Govt has expressly warned about increasing of sale prices now there is the Feebate, how enforceable that is especially on used cars we shall see.