Are manuals still desirable?

[MD13 494]

3 hours ago, hybrid said:

You do get use to it. Use to kind of annoy me too but now I love it. Mine works off  brake pressure, by the time you have moved your foot back to the accelerator pedal the engine is running and ready to take off.

Pretty sure I could get used to loss of hearing or piles - but I'd rather not :-)

[huff3r 347]

6 minutes ago, M3AN said:

I fundamentally disagree but that's okay. Auto-pilot, like cruise control, is not a substitute for poor skills.

Perhaps a Yaw damper is a better example then. They are always working hard in aviation to ensure poor skills don't cause accidents, and why not do the same for Automotive engineering too?

[M3AN 4016]

43 minutes ago, huff3r said:

Perhaps a Yaw damper is a better example then. They are always working hard in aviation to ensure poor skills don't cause accidents, and why not do the same for Automotive engineering too?

You're doing pilots a disservice Paul. Yaw dampers (ILS etc, etc), are there for a very, very specific safety related reasons, these things are not for pilot convenience or to compensate for a lack of basic skills. Anti-stall and hill start assist in automobiles are to compensate for a lack of basic skills. 

I had electronic yaw control on my last 4WD rocket and it was ace. I even needed it every now and again! But it was only ever required when I ran out of skills on the limit.

I'm happy to accept you disagree with my original point and I'm totally fine with that. I happen to disagree with you, that's cool too.

[kwhelan 241]

 because they never learnt to drive cos they preferred the convenience of a slush matic

 

 

I was driving a manual Toyota last week, to start the car the clutch has to be depressed  like the start stop technology it generally results in adapted driving approaches -  in this instance one simply adapts to using the clutch like a foot starter switch (like my old tractor).

The obvious drawback is if you release the clutch and it is in gear the  car lurches off,  the logic is an epic fail as it adds complication and  you still have the same original problem but now the engine is actually running - SFD

As for the stop start technology -  no thanks - try it at an intersection on an open country road or sliding at slow speed on ice  with the wheels locked up and the engine off - no steering.

 

I disagree with basically all of this and the ice bit is just laughable,

as if, with all the lawsuits around they would be stupid enough to let cars stop/start and do that

We were always taught the correct way to start a manual car is clutch in to disengage the trans and take load off the starter and it just makes common sense safety wise. I doubt I could just jump in a car and turn the key without pressing a pedal, it just feels completely wrong.

[Dn540 67]

All depends I guess, but yes I prefer manual any day. And depending on the vehicle increases value.

 

For a while I had to daily my LTD (worked 5.0 + heavy clutch/5speed) and I got sick of that really quickly. Traffic and hills (Dunedin) become tiresome. And this is just spending 30mins in Dunedins traffic, I couldn't imagine doing it in Auckland for example. 

 

Now we take the wifes BF XR6 with the ZF auto or the E320, both auto. The xr6 is definitely my choice of daily driver, but after a while i get a real craving for the manual again.

 

Guess it's worth it to have both and find the balance!

[hybrid 1043]

Yeah don't get me wrong... manuals are a lot more fun just not in rubbish traffic. 

If you don't do that every day then I guess no excuse for manual.

I disagree with the dumbed down comment. I have just bought a brand new one of those dumbed down cars and when you actually live with it day bin day out the small driving aides make lots of sense. 

This is from someone who is all about driving experience. I guess after having pretty much every type of vehicle over the years it's like how I use computers.

A different one for each purpose. Music Studio computer is just that ... making music. Main stay computer does all the graphics stuff etc. Garage pc has all of my car hacking stuff on it. And a Inet laptop for carrying around the house browsing the internets and not much else.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

Excuse my ignorance, but what does SFD mean?

The stop / start technology is a direct result of the EU test regime for cars, a percentage is the car stopped and idling - easy way to cut the emissions, turn the engine off.

Not an issue with the autos, but lifting a clutch pedal and the engine cutting out just feels all wrong, the embarrassment of stalling a car. Yeah, not sure of the life expectancy on the starter motor, but they have put them in a place that is easy to swap out a dodgy one if that helps? Might get a bit interesting when the car gets a bit tired and takes a while to start rather than firing first pop. As Josh says, by the time you've got your foot over to the accelerator the engine is back into life, so no delays or risks there.

[KwS 2425]

1 hour ago, E30 325i Rag-Top said:

Excuse my ignorance, but what does SFD mean?

So Flipping Dumb i presume.

[hybrid 1043]

There is an interesting article some where I watched about why stop start technology at all. It's actually not for you and me to save $300 a year but more the emmisions for fleet savings. 

The manufacturer gets big savings and insentive to reduce over all fleet emissions.  This is a way for them to achieve that.

As much as you and don't like it, environmentally it's probably a good thing.

[Apex 693]

On 15 August 2016 at 7:07 PM, M3AN said:

Very true. But if you can drive a manual properly in the first place you don't need any of this right?

 

I don't need any of it. But its nice to have in traffic, the thing this topic is about. 

Do you need any of the junk listed in your signature on your car? I mean, is it a race car? Do you take it to the track?

I bet modern driver aids are a hell of a lot more useful than a cross brace on a mall crawler. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Michael. 2313]

I like my auto because the ECM closes the intake throttle for a fraction of a second on gear changes and it sounds really cool.

Manuals are still better, but a good auto behind the right engine is still enjoyable. 

 

[Driftit 2078]

On 8/15/2016 at 0:04 AM, Apex said:

Cars have come a long way, a modern manual is so easy to drive in traffic, the last couple I have had as drivers had all sort of tech to make it easy, hill start assist, anti stall etc. 

 

Yeah agree.  I was driving an 2010 E60 550i manual the other day around DC.  Very easy to drive.  The hill start assist was great.

But on the highways I had had enough after 500 miles.

[M3AN 4016]

6 hours ago, Apex said:

 

I don't need any of it. But its nice to have in traffic, the thing this topic is about. 

Do you need any of the junk listed in your signature on your car? I mean, is it a race car? Do you take it to the track?

I bet modern driver aids are a hell of a lot more useful than a cross brace on a mall crawler. 

Get out of bed on the wrong side this morning? Or is it just that you've got your period? 

[Apex 693]

36 minutes ago, M3AN said:

Get out of bed on the wrong side this morning? Or is it just that you've got your period? 

Was quick out of bed with a bum period.  Switched back to a high protein diet and I am a little scared to fart TBH. Thanks for asking.

 

Im just glad my chassis isnt stiff like yours, I would have seriouse problems on my daily comute.

 

To the original topic, I am looking for a new daily ATM, hence I am on bimersport looking around.

 

Manual is top of my list, followed by station wagon and nice steering… then economy and reliabilty come into play.

 

My daily comute is 50km on back roads, dead back roads, so a manual that steers is what I need.

 

Must say, manual is hard to find these days, unless you go for a sports type car. Was impressed that 80% of the cars I looked at in Europe were manual, just wish they were available here.

 

 

 

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

In before thread lock.

 

SFD = Stupid f**king dicks.

 

[Apex 693]

16 hours ago, 3pedals said:

And they have more congestion than we do,  what does that tell - are we just lame and roll over because the car dealers tell us we will get used to it and autos are better anyway .

Have one auto - specific purpose - invalid cart

have  5 manuals - specific purpose - cars to drive

Yes. But dealers take what they are given. But whats worse is that most of the time you can't even order a manual anymore. dealers will tell you that "modern auto's are just as good". Best I have had was "drag cars are auto, so thats what you want'

When I ordered my new Ford Ranger, I was told to buy an auto for resale, they even offered me an auto at a cheaper price and said manual is hard on resale value.. I waited for a manual and don't regret it, well aside from the fact Ford limit the power in the manual in first and second gears. 

I had a new Mazda CX5 Limited last week as a loaner, was an awesome car with a lot of great features, handled really well, enough grunt, all the toys.. only problem was the gearbox. No manual option, even though they sell a lot of them as manual in Europe. With a manual gear bit it would be a very enjoyable car, with an auto its simply something to sit in. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Golfboy666GTI 68]

21 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

Slight contradiction in that Graham, the dealers and the principals agree what they stock  (not 'dealers take what they get')   and you get to suck it up if you don't like what they want to sell.

One dealer was at least honest when I was talking with him a month ago about a manual 335i   - His comment why we the  don't see them ( or DCT's)  here as Jap imports is: "because the Irish and brits will pay more for them and our buyers get out bid ( read won't step up) " .  So we get the poverty pack ones with crap seats and the slush matic box .

No such thing as:  "free market" "consumer choice" or "customer is king"

Fewer models, fewer parts fewer tools and dumber mechanics all  head in one direction  back to the dark ages when you took what the dealer offered. Some manufacturers are heading down this road as well as the Bean counters dominate decision making. 

Any one remember the 1950's & 60's  Pay your money up front in full  then stand in a queue for 18 months and take the car that comes with your name on it.

Welcome to the new world order where the customer is in for a mugging

 

Your man is talking rubbish.  Twice a week I look at a Japanese auction website, in the last 2 years I have not seen a manual 335i. The only modern (2005+) RHD manual BMW's that pop up are 320's and 130's. These cars make there way to NZ Shores.

[gjm 3258]

26 minutes ago, 3pedals said:

One dealer was at least honest when I was talking with him a month ago about a manual 335i   - His comment why we the  don't see them ( or DCT's)  here as Jap imports is: "because the Irish and brits will pay more for them and our buyers get out bid ( read won't step up) " .  So we get the poverty pack ones with crap seats and the slush matic box .

No such thing as:  "free market" "consumer choice" or "customer is king"

 

Just now, Golfboy666GTI said:

Your man is talking rubbish.  Twice a week I look at a Japanese auction website, in the last 2 years I have not seen a manual 335i. The only modern (2005+) RHD manual BMW's that pop up are 320's and 130's. These cars make there way to NZ Shores.

I was going to suggest the Kiwi buyers drop out because they know what they can sell a car for here, and they deem the price being required to be paid at auction as not leaving them enough profit for their new version of whatever they drive along with their extended spring/summer/autumn/winter beach holiday break.

However... If the cars just aren't for sale in Japan either, then it's a different matter.

The issue is more to do with the dumbing down that has gone on for decades. Us rebels who want to do things our way are a diminishing minority, and simply not (economically) worth catering for.

Unless we go back to the situation Ron describes where you go to a dealer, front up a lot of cash to buy a specific model in a specific specification and insist on having that one, then wait months for it to arrive. It can be done - I have a friend with a factory original Land Rover Defender, diesel engine, and factory-fit automatic gearbox. He is handicapped, cannot use a clutch, but still runs a small farm. Apparently that particular order was turned around in under 3 months.

Anyway, if you want a late-model car with a manual, you'd best either be ready for a long wait, buy it new as a special order, or arrange to import it from Europe.

[E30 325i Rag-Top 2956]

2 hours ago, 3pedals said:

Fewer models, fewer parts fewer tools and dumber mechanics all  head in one direction  back to the dark ages when you took what the dealer offered.

So fewer models - no, fewer parts - no, fewer tools - no (you should see the special tool store - it needs an extension!!), dumber mechanics - if you mean technicians then definately no, with the complex systems in todays cars.

Not sure which manufacturers you think are heading down this road Ron but it's certainly not BMW, Audi, M-B, VW, etc.. even Porsche, Jaguar, etc. are expanding their model line ups to generate enough volume to get to critical mass and survive.

We have been through this argument before about new car stock, etc. If you want a manual order a manual, you only need a small holding deposit not the full amount (and you'd be amazed by how many buyers walk away from cars they have ordered and built to their exact specifications). There are still a few customers out there that know what they want and are prepared to pay for it .

[gjm 3258]

1 hour ago, 3pedals said:

I even succumbed to test driving a sportline auto 328 a while ago and 100m down the road I asked the Dealer, is this the sport line suspension it feels a bit soft? his response ---  OH NO We HAVE THE FACTORY DELETE THE SPORTS SPRINGS AND SHOCKS AT THE FACTORY -- NO ONE IN NEW ZEALAND WANTS THAT  ITS TOO HARSH !!So a sportline  is a sportline except in NZ where it is a standard car with a couple of badges - and you can't get it in manual -  but you pay the full sportline price --- aren't our dealers just so lovely makes you want to take one home ( need a new cross bow target)

This is nuts! I'm not sure when the dealers spoke to their 'customers'... It used to be a significant differentiator between Mercedes and BMW that BMW were more sporty (in general). No manul box, and no sport suspension just means the cars are that much more alike.

Off to the deck for a chardonnay in the sunset  with Italian smoked salmon on german roggebrood

 This sounds so good!

 

[Apex 693]

Hey girls.

I think we are in a golden age of performance cars. Lets just be happy we can buy a Ford Hatch back with a manual transmission and a setting called drift mode! And BMW make cars like the M2.

Lots of manual options if you want an all out performance car.

Also. Have a look at whats available in Australia, some great bargains on manual cars there.

 

[Allanw 1071]

If I walked into a dealer, to get the car I wanted, in a manual, and they said I couldn't have one, I'd walk. A dealer somewhere, or another maker will sort me out! Who cares WHY I want it, I just do!

Ordering a car is no issue - 3 months isn't a big deal, most of the time.

We special ordered our VW T5 Transporter in 2013. It was under 3 months to arrive! We ordered 2.0 BiTdi 132KW, 4motion, LWB, HIGH roof with DSG, along with a number of factory options, like wooden floors and laser cut linings and tie downs, park aid etc. Thankfully, the dealer came back saying the long/high/dsg combo isn't available, so we had to drop the DSG, and go manual

[Driftit 2078]

These models with no manual option.  What are they?

All the BMW models that should have a manual option do.  The 1,2,3,4,5,6 series all have the option.

Most of the BMW's in NZ are Jap imports.  Most of the Jap imports are Auto.  It is what they prefer.  This has been an issue for as long as I can remember.  Hell most of them are silver or white...yawn.
If you are in the market for a 2nd hand manual Euro then look at importing from the UK.  There are plenty of importers.  Or do it yourself (it's very easy).

The world is a small place.  The services to obtain the car you desire are abundant.
Happy to send you as many manual conversions as you like from the US.

[KwS 2425]

If its such a concern for you Ron, im sure when you go into your local dealer with the money to purchase your new BMW, you will be able to pick the manual option you so dearly want. Not all options will be online or in the brochure.

Until then, why bother with this uselessly boring, repetitive rant?

[Driftit 2078]

I wouldn't have thought the NZ sites would list it as an option.  Won't it just be for what stock they have or have coming?

Best option for you would be to order direct and pick it up from the factory in Germany.  Tour Europe and the UK before they implode.  Ship it home afterwards.  You will pay much less over the counter but get shafted by GST when you bring it back.