Rising fuel prices. What now? Diesel? Hybrid?

[aja540i 1906]

A hybrid is less beneficial on long journeys than short commutes as there is less slowing down to charge the battery so a higher percentage of your energy is coming from the gas tank,  but perfect if you do a lot of commuting and an occasional long trip and you don't want 2 vehicles, plug in hybrid slightly better if you can stop and charge it along the way.

[Jacko 2154]

Have massively noticed a difference in the fuel bill dailying the 1.5l toyota CVT around town (happily on 91) and using the BMW on the weekends/longer journeys. Added bonus is it makes the 130/330 feel like a rocketship.

[nick496 268]

20 hours ago, gjm said:

But for now... The choice isn't simple. A hybrid? A diesel? Or just buy an economical car? We get 13.6km per litre from our E46 318i.

I think it depends on if you're looking to replace an aging car anyway, because you will take a while to realise any savings if you have to purchase a newer (and likely more expensive) car.

2 Cars seems to be the way to go if you have space.

But if you're locked down to a single car a hybrid if you do mostly around town and a few long distance, or a diesel if your commute is long enough to actually warm it up each day. 

[GorGasm 563]

I don't plan to buy any time in the near future but my next car will almost certainly be electric as fossil fuels are going the way of the dinosaurs.  I might keep my weekend toy for a while though.  If I was buying now I would probably just get a cheap petrol car to last a year or two as I think we'll start to see cool stuff then.

I live in a city which isn't a complete disaster from a transport perspective and also have very little need to commute or travel more than a few km's at a time.  I encourage everyone that can to move out of Auckland and work remotely.

Auto manufacturers are coming up with some real next generation cars these days.

[E28E30 335]

Totally same thinking here @GorGasm 

[Olaf 3317]

1 hour ago, GorGasm said:

I don't plan to buy any time in the near future but my next car will almost certainly be electric as fossil fuels are going the way of the dinosaurs our coal-burning power plants to keep grid capacity up with EV demand!  I might keep my weekend toy for a while though.  If I was buying now I would probably just get a cheap petrol car to last a year or two as I think we'll start to see cool stuff then.

I live in a city which isn't a complete disaster from a transport perspective and also have very little need to commute or travel more than a few km's at a time.  I encourage everyone that can to move out of Auckland and work remotely.

Auto manufacturers are coming up with some real next generation cars these days.

(somewhat cheekily, I acknowledge!) - fixed that for ya 😎

[qube 3570]

Does anyone have any info or experience stories with hybrids or phev? 
 

[Sammo 2544]

Luckily have a work fuel card for majority of consumption so don't really look at prices but saw the other day that 98 was like $2.80 or something - crazy.

I do 'pay cash' for fuelling my (very thirsty) E30 but fortunately those kms are low and probably 35% work and 65% pleasure so not too bothered.

At same point will try going electric for the 'main' / 'modern' car though as next car purchase will likely be a super thirsty Prado or something to tow a Horse Float.

[Driftit 2078]

I'm on board with Toyota and the reasoning they gave for not signing the Glasgow agreement.
https://www.autoblog.com/2021/11/11/toyota-zero-emissions-climate-pledge/

The same goes in NZ.  Our infrastructure is terrible for EV's.  My town only has one charging station.  And during the winter months Solar is not a viable option to power both a house and a car on it's own.

Hoping the Hydrogen tech keeps the ICE alive.

Even running around in a Tesla Model S on the East Coast of the USA was still a little bit of a hassle.  Whilst it did all the work telling me where to stop and for how long on a road trip.  It still meant extended stops in the middle of nowhere for up to 45mins.

A model S is affordable in the US.  It isn't here.  And our lease options are not even worth looking at.

I feel NZ IS one of the countries Toyota is talking about.

[dirtydoogle 383]

1 hour ago, qube said:

Does anyone have any info or experience stories with hybrids or phev? 
 

There's very little to say about Toyota hybrids. The only less-than-adequate part of the camry is the awful brake pedal feel. It does around 6.6L/100km in town and open road, and with 470km on the clock it still has around the same electric only range as advertised on the original battery. 

I'm considering buying a current shape Corolla hybrid this year. 

[Michael. 2313]

Ask for a pay rise at work, or come up  with a ways to make more money to offset such fuel increase. 

Everything is getting more expensive, so you have to respond in kind.

Smartest thing to do would be to buy a straight 6, V8 or V12 and enjoy yourself, paid for by new revenue streams. At the end of the day it's the journey that counts, not not the destination. 

I have three V8s now and a one diesel. More will be added in due course. Life is good. 

 

On 1/6/2022 at 11:47 AM, gjm said:

 

I wonder if EVs are 'easier' on roads than ICE vehicles? 🤔

 

That would be a very large no. Generally from what I've seen an electric version of a car is 500-750kg more weight than it's petrol or diesel equivalent. Cars have gotten heavier with more tech over the years, but on top the the batteries have added huge amounts of weight that will be harder on the road, and wear out tyres faster. The instant torque if used repeatedly on the same piece of road would likely rip it up faster than what any petrol or diesel car could do. 

Electric cars should have the weight factored in as well at lack of fuel taxes they are paying when calculating a RUC  

I suspect car crashes are also going to be much more catastrophic in future too given the extra weight and potential for a battery fire that can't be easily put out. Perhaps ACC levies for electric cars should also be higher. There needs to be some redirected funding that would need to go to the fire crews having to learn new methods and buy new equipment to deal with such lithium blazes, as well as be trained on the electrocution risks 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Michael.

[KwS 2425]

2 hours ago, Michael. said:

I suspect car crashes are also going to be much more catastrophic in future too given the extra weight and potential for a battery fire that can't be easily put out. Perhaps ACC levies for electric cars should also be higher. There needs to be some redirected funding that would need to go to the fire crews having to learn new methods and buy new equipment to deal with such lithium blazes, as well as be trained on the electrocution risks 

I used to work with a Volunteer firefighter, and they were told that any Hybrid or EV that crashed and was seriously damaged, they had to wait an hour before they could touch it to save an occupant. They literally have to stand there, watching the car burn as the occupant screams at them for help. I cant see that happening, but thats what the bigwigs have told them to do.

There is no standardised way to disconnect the HV side of the battery and make it safe. Manufacturers do make the information available, but who is going to sit there on their phone, watching someone burn to death, searching a site looking for the required information on each and every car?

[Michael. 2313]

1 hour ago, KwS said:

I used to work with a Volunteer firefighter, and they were told that any Hybrid or EV that crashed and was seriously damaged, they had to wait an hour before they could touch it to save an occupant. They literally have to stand there, watching the car burn as the occupant screams at them for help. I cant see that happening, but thats what the bigwigs have told them to do.

There is no standardised way to disconnect the HV side of the battery and make it safe. Manufacturers do make the information available, but who is going to sit there on their phone, watching someone burn to death, searching a site looking for the required information on each and every car?

I'm sure hurdles can be overcome, but until they are it's not going to be pretty. Like cars before seatbelts and airbags. 

[polley 916]

There is not a single street in the country where the electrical infrastructure is up to the task of everyone coming home and plugging in their EV. Couple that with the government wanting to get rid of gas how are factorys supposed to supply steam to their process? It's not uncommon for a small factory to have a 5MW boiler. And that's not even bringing into the question the generation side of it.

[Michael. 2313]

6 minutes ago, polley said:

There is not a single street in the country where the electrical infrastructure is up to the task of everyone coming home and plugging in their EV. Couple that with the government wanting to get rid of gas how are factorys supposed to supply steam to their process? It's not uncommon for a small factory to have a 5MW boiler. And that's not even bringing into the question the generation side of it.

Mere details! Those business are gonna just have to suck it up and realise CO2 is evil and killing the planet, we needed zero carbon yesterday, until it's at 0ppm we are at risk from a climate catastrophe  - think of the future generations! 

 

[BreakMyWindow 1874]

2 hours ago, KwS said:

I used to work with a Volunteer firefighter, and they were told that any Hybrid or EV that crashed and was seriously damaged, they had to wait an hour before they could touch it to save an occupant. They literally have to stand there, watching the car burn as the occupant screams at them for help. I cant see that happening, but thats what the bigwigs have told them to do.

There is no standardised way to disconnect the HV side of the battery and make it safe. Manufacturers do make the information available, but who is going to sit there on their phone, watching someone burn to death, searching a site looking for the required information on each and every car?

I remember reading about a fatal crash involving a model s. Took iirc several olympic swimming pools worth of water to put the batt fire out. 
 

You’d think there’d be some training on common ev’s and how to disable HV for fire fighters…

[aja540i 1906]

12 minutes ago, polley said:

There is not a single street in the country where the electrical infrastructure is up to the task of everyone coming home and plugging in their EV. Couple that with the government wanting to get rid of gas how are factorys supposed to supply steam to their process? It's not uncommon for a small factory to have a 5MW boiler. And that's not even bringing into the question the generation side of it.

There isn't a single street in the country where the gas station is up to the task of everybody trying to fill their car at once.

Its a bit of a pointless argument as there is no scenario where everybody in the country will plug their car in at the same time, mine uses about the same amount of power to charge as boiling the jug or cooking some toast, and I don't HAVE to charge it every day.

As for the commercial users, hydrogen will take care of most of that. (Eventually!)

 

[Michael. 2313]

16 minutes ago, BreakMyWindow said:

I remember reading about a fatal crash involving a model s. Took iirc several olympic swimming pools worth of water to put the batt fire out. 
 

You’d think there’d be some training on common ev’s and how to disable HV for fire fighters…

I read the NTSB was suggesting "One way to deal with damaged batteries is to pull them from the vehicle and soak them in a saltwater bath to discharge the energy,"

High tech cars, high tech solution. Then what do they do with the contaminated water? 

[gjm 3258]

28 minutes ago, aja540i said:

As for the commercial users, hydrogen will take care of most of that. (Eventually!)

I wish those that are proposing being involved in hydrogen production (on a commercial scale) would get their proverbial fingers out and actually do something instead of just talk!

[GorGasm 563]

6 hours ago, Michael. said:

Ask for a pay rise at work, or come up  with a ways to make more money to offset such fuel increase. 

Everything is getting more expensive, so you have to respond in kind.

Smartest thing to do would be to buy a straight 6, V8 or V12 and enjoy yourself, paid for by new revenue streams. At the end of the day it's the journey that counts, not not the destination. 

I have three V8s now and a one diesel. More will be added in due course. Life is good. 

 

That would be a very large no. Generally from what I've seen an electric version of a car is 500-750kg more weight than it's petrol or diesel equivalent. Cars have gotten heavier with more tech over the years, but on top the the batteries have added huge amounts of weight that will be harder on the road, and wear out tyres faster. The instant torque if used repeatedly on the same piece of road would likely rip it up faster than what any petrol or diesel car could do. 

Electric cars should have the weight factored in as well at lack of fuel taxes they are paying when calculating a RUC  

I suspect car crashes are also going to be much more catastrophic in future too given the extra weight and potential for a battery fire that can't be easily put out. Perhaps ACC levies for electric cars should also be higher. There needs to be some redirected funding that would need to go to the fire crews having to learn new methods and buy new equipment to deal with such lithium blazes, as well as be trained on the electrocution risks 

Agree with the first part, you gotta pay to play.  Personally the price of petrol doesn't really affect me at all.

The rest is exaggeration and scaremongering.  Passenger cars have a light footprint regardless of their power plant, it's trucks that f**k the road to pieces.  I'm not against EV's paying RUC but they aren't going to impact the roading any different to existing passenger cars.

 

NZ society needs to stop commuting for work in passenger vehicles.  It's a colossal waste of time and resources.  I used to spend 2.5 hours a day in Auckland traffic and spend $150 a week in petrol and I now do the same job remotely and live less than 1 km from all essential services (Supermarket, doctor, day care, school, takeaway, service station, hair dresser).  I get that not everyone can work remotely, but you should be able to live close to your location of work enabling you to travel on foot or via public transport.  This ideal is currently out of reach for many people in the main centres due to out of control property price increases and that's a real crime.  Thus i suggest abandoning Auckland and Wellington for other more sustainable cities.

[coop 261]

Cummins are in the process of developing hydrogen combustion for their on highway engines. 

 

https://powertorque.com.au/cummins-is-developing-hydrogen-combustion-x15/?utm_campaign=60e4aa0b54d1a90001c2282d&utm_content=61b2059a9e12820001c55990&utm_medium=smarpshare&utm_source=linkedin&fbclid=IwAR3npbKTa7iCkEjzf32ZGCu3JHtgw7vnWP6X12ac-Bg35sQMgFka4vmoIQU#mobile-site-navigation

 

Interestingly, Isuzu and Hino will be using Cummins to supply their small and medium size diesel truck engines from 4.5 to 9 litres. They're both directing R and D into BEV technology and they don't see progressing their existing engine platforms to meet Euro 6 as viable. 

A huge gamble on their part and Cummins could be the real winner out of this, especially if their hydrogen combustion tech and infrastructure takes hold.  

 

As for the OP, you have an F20, worth at least $20k? 

What sort of change over figure will you be looking at for an EV, at least another $20k... 

How much gas is that going to buy, factoring in depreciation the unknown future RUC rates...

 

 

[KwS 2425]

52 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

Thus i suggest abandoning Auckland and Wellington for other more sustainable cities.

Yeah thats not going to happen, my job is specific to the company I work for, so not like I can just go somewhere else. Same with my Wife.

Public transport is also a have. It needs to be more reliable, available and cheaper. At the moment its cheaper to drive, I get free parking at work, and I dont have to worry about some drongo with covid/rabies licking me on the train/bus. There is also no direct train link from the hutt valley to porirua, so thats out.

I will go PHEV once I can afford to, just because most of my commute can be done on EV alone, but i still have the range if i want to take a trip up the country and not have to piss around charging it. Hydrogen is the future I hope for though, along with synthetic petrol replacements so I can keep running classic cars.

[coop 261]

58 minutes ago, GorGasm said:

  Thus i suggest abandoning Auckland and Wellington for other more sustainable cities.

With the exception of maybe Invercargill, there are no sustainable cities. 

Even a 4 bed in Te Kuiti or Tokoroa you'll struggle to pick up something for under $400k. 

Those who push the working from home angle, if you can do it, then there is a possibility someone in India can at a fraction of your pay check. 

[m325i 709]

Some very interesting points raised here. Especially the RUC which I was not considering. 

If you're buying a new (commuter) car now, electric seems the logical way. Base Tesla Model 3 seems like a great deal, and obviously why they are so popular. 

It's a real shame BMW's electric offering sucks. (The Audi's are very expensive but look awesome. The KIA looks great, as does the Ionic 5). 

[Choo 16]

On 1/5/2022 at 6:07 PM, qube said:

With petrol prices expected to continue rising, are people considering alternative vehicles? Maybe a cheaper to run daily or complete change to an electric or hybrid or maybe a diesel instead of petrol bmw?

Curious to hear everyones thoughts if anyone has made a move or planning or thinking about it. 
 

Not many good bmw hybrid options, maybe something diesel, or possibly alternative brands?

Side question - thoughts on running 91 on bmws? Something economic but newish like a 116/320 or similar, not a performance or sports model or anything.
 

 

I talked to a friend who bought a Hyundai Ionic about 5 years ago. He seems quite happy with it, had no serious faults to fix up, and said he gets 23km / litre fuel use from what google maps says is a combination of highway and very congested city roads (not in NZ). Only minor complaint he has relates to not being able to update the software for his in-car entertainment unit. Hope this helps :p.